Project boat as first boat?

[Kettlewell]

Shortly after I had "completed" my workshop, a rain storm blew thru' the neighborhood during the night.
I awoke the next morning to see my Workshop laying in tatters on the ground and the reality of my situation quickly dawned on me.

But being a naturally stubborn person, I kept at it....

Anything can be done with determination! A friend, who later became a professional boatbuilder, constructed one of his first boats in his upper-story apartment in Philadelphia. It was a Wharram cat so the two hulls were relatively skinny, but he miscalculated slightly and couldn't get the hulls out the window without removing the entire window frame. Then each hull was lowered to the street below with a crane, to be assembled elsewhere. I once saw a huge steel boat for sale in Maine that was unfortunately constructed on an inland lot with no way to get the vessel to the water. Apparently, the authorities were refusing to allow trucks to reach the spot and the last I saw you could purchase the boat cheaply, with the clause in the contract it was "where is, as is" since it couldn't be moved.

[cupofjoe]

Wow didn't expect so many replies this quickly. I appreciate the honest advice not to do this and just to get a boat that's actually sailable. It's not really a question of funds, more of time and not being ready to commit to the lifestyle right now. But it does sound like its unrealistic in my situation living as an expat in Holland. I do have friends here, but they are not interested in sailing and would probably not be willing or able to help me so it would be a solo project if I did it. But I guess I will abandon this idea.

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

By the way, if you do choose a project boat the #1 consideration is where you will work on it, how much it will cost, how convenient it is to where you live, and how likely it will be to stay the way it is. The best option is if you have it on your own property where you live, and the neighbors will not object. Just be sure the town council/powers that be won't come around and tell you that what you are doing isn't allowed. If you have to travel to a boatyard, pay boatyard storage fees, and work around boatyard hours the project difficulty and costs increase tremendously.

It would have to be at a boatyard about 30-60 minutes drive away because I live in the middle of a built up city.

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Joe:

...

As an ex-pat you are unlikely to have shop space to do joiner work, and you simply cannot do quality joiner work aboard. You need a shoreside shop with the appropriate "grown up" machine tools. Trying to do it "on your lap" while living aboard is a sure path to dissatisfaction and to abandoning the project.

Enuff o' that!

You are implying that your funds are constrained. If so - PARTICULARLY if so! - find a boat that is operational, even if only just adequately so. Settle down to "growing" the bux to buy a better boat even if that prospect lies twenty years in the future.

And as a follow-up to that: Being "very dissatisfied with the market" really means no more than that you don't have the ready, unencumbered bux to satisfy your dream. Well, then - perhaps it's time for a shot of strong morning coffee :-)!

All the best to you, or as they say in the Netherlands: "Goed geluk!"

TrentePieds

True, I would have to basically have an entire workshop available which I don't.

Also, it's very hard not to look at this market currently and feel good about boat shopping when the price of used boats has gone UP, not down.

Originally Posted by boatman61

1st.. What size do you consider a suitable liveaboard.. whilst I consider a suitable 32ftr more than adequate many Americans consider <40ft camping and <45ft barely adequate..
Personally I would look for a boat in Holland in the 30-36ft range like a Contest with sound hull, decks and engine, the rigging is easy enough to do yourself one shroud at a time using compression fittings with plenty of online video tuition.
Sails can be upgraded one at a time while you use the old ones as your learning tools.
Practice/learn on the Dutch sheltered waters till you've perfected techniques and manouveres and liveaboard at a marina getting your practice at weekends if still working.. spend your evenings familiarising yourself with navigation, the internal workings of the boat (plumbing, elecs etc) and basic engine maintainance.
A couple of examples below..

https://www.scanboat.com/en/boat-mar...ketch-17469665

https://www.scanboat.com/en/boat-mar...31-ht-17429477

You surmised correctly. I have been looking at boats between 40 and 50 feet. I have experience sailing boats under 40 and over 40, and I have always found the larger boats significantly more comfortable to be aboard and a far better experience. I'd rather not get a boat at all than get one that I will hate being in. I will probably just stick to chartering if I can't find a boat I like honestly.

[NorthCoastJoe]

My Pearson 30 was a free boat, $30,000 later and a lot of time a great boat. That $30,000 does not include the marina and yard fees that number is just boat parts and equipment. I did all the work. Want to buy a rebuilt Pearson 30?

[Bowdrie]

There is a big difference between a "project" boat and a "PROJECT" boat.
And yes, things that are reasonably doable on a 28-footer can become deep undertakings on a 40 footer.
Previous posts have mentioned tools and workplace, this is quite true.
Generally speaking, an amateur who is working with simple hand-held tools cannot expect to produce a high quality "yacht" interior within a reasonable time frame, a simple "race boat" interior is much more doable.
Living and/or being "comfortable" on a boat has little to do with size, but much more about adaptation and mindset.
Lin and Larry Pardey spent years on a 24' boat, then they got a "big" boat of 30'.
Should you wish to continue, heed what Thomm225 posted.
Get a smaller boat that doesn't require a fortune in time/money and enjoy the pleasures it can provide without becoming a heavy burden.

[Secondshift]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

My suggestion is to purchase a small, inexpensive older boat first to get to know a lot more about boats in general. Before you decide to liveaboard get to know the lifestyle and what is involved in maintaining a boat. Even small boats are lots of work. The #1 reason people abandon cruising is the maintenance, and many people purchasing project boats never launch them. Some people do what you are proposing, but I would venture to guess that 9 out of 10 eventually abandon the project.

Very accurate!

It should also be pointed out that a lack of experience in “fixer uppers” will be detrimental to picking one out.

If you can start out with a trailer sailer and store/ work at home a very large portion of cost and travel time can be avoided.
Mentioning these things as immaterial is a serious miscalculation.

I started with several books on boat repair and vessel inspection. Don Casey and others come to mind.
Model specific forums can help with what to check on available boats.
Best Luck!

[MicHughV]

I've known people that had to travel an hour each way to work on their boat. None, I repeat, NONE, made it to the water.

This is a sad truism of tackling these kind of projects.

I can understand the romantic notion that accompanies such a desire, bur reality is a hard master.

Lastly, one must factor in the weather. If one lives in a northern clim, one must contend with snow, freezing cold, etc, where working on a boat is near impossible, so a good portion of the year is gone due to those circumstances.

But I'll leave you with a tip. It turns out that a local high school near to where I built my boat, had a massive fully equipped wood working shop. I got to know the teacher, who allowed me access to this trove of machinery in the evening hours where I could work away without restraint. Every possible wood working machine was in there.
In addition, he took an interest in my boat project and provided an expert eye and guiding hand to my task at hand.

It pays to snoop around and see where you might find such a place.

[Bowdrie]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

But I'll leave you with a tip. It turns out that a local high school near to where I built my boat, had a massive fully equipped wood working shop. I got to know the teacher, who allowed me access to this trove of machinery in the evening hours where I could work away without restraint. Every possible wood working machine was in there.
In addition, he took an interest in my boat project and provided an expert eye and guiding hand to my task at hand.

Boy did that jog a few of my memory cells.
Many years ago, I sailed several times on a wonderfully built little schooner that had originally been built by a high-school woodshop teacher in his backyard.
All of the face frames/doors/drawers/cabinets, and countless other stuff had been built/shaped by his students as projects.
He just furnished the wood and oversaw the progress.

[MicHughV]

Here's a thing for consideration.

It took me close on three years to build my boat.

In that time, I had countless " dreamer's" come by to see what I was up to.

Most of them were just wasting my time, but several provided invaluable help to me just when I needed it most. One could say it was divine intervention, and I would not argue this point.

I'll make a case in point. Having completed my hull and deck, built from steel, I was now faced with the daunting task of getting the boat sand blasted. I rented a sand blaster and umpteen bags of sand, plus helmet, hoses and other gear, and figured I'll have a steep learning curve the next day.

With that in mind, I went to sleep early, when around 9 pm in the evening, there was a knock on my trailer door. Outside stood a middle aged
guy, whom I had never seen before. He told me quite honestly he was there to help me sand blast my hull to atone for his sins.

I didn't know what to make of him, and thought he was some drunk that had lost his way.

The next morning, I was up at 6 am, getting ready for the task and opened my camper door to find this same guy waiting for me. He didn't say much, but asked for a cup of coffee which I gave to him. Then he donned the sand blasting suit, instructed me to feed the hopper, and started blasting away. We stopped blasting every few hours to paint what we had just blasted. We stopped again, only for a few minutes around lunch time. We worked non-stop till about 6 pm, when he finally stopped. When next I turned around he was gone.

This happened every morning for the next six days. It was brutally hot to boot, being the middle of summer. While doing the outside of the boat was a miserable task, doing the inside was a living hell.

We we were done, he disappeared once more. I never knew his name, how he found me, nothing.....zero...

True story !!

[pdx_sailing]

1. no.
2. maybe, do you really enjoy projects?
3. no, get a first boat you can sail, so you understand why your doing the projects.
4. of that last two used boats I have bought I have spent the purchase price on repairs and upgrades, buy one that works they all break and create projects.

[Fore and Aft]

Cupofjoe the other issue is your repairs/improvements might actually devalue the boat. I have surveyed more than one boat where the owners work has to be removed and done again by a professional or competent amateur.
MicHughV when we used to sand blast in the desert our helmet was fed with air-conditioned air. It was much more pleasant blasting than keeping the hopper full. Sounds like a nice guy that helped you.
Cheers

[MicHughV]

Yes, that helmet was air fed, but it still looked like a miserable job to do.

That was but one example of the many events that occurred during my boat building project. I can tell you of many more.

I think when your heart and mind are focused on getting something done, people, places and things just seem to happen out of thin air to move you along.

I can look back on my boat build project and tell you that despite the many problems, lack of money, etc, it was probably the best three years of life.

I attach one my favorite pics during my build, as this was the first time I could really see the "size" of what I was building.

[Craig Cape Town]

What is your motivation for considering a project boat?
Do you want to sail or have a hobby fixing boats?
Get something cheap that will get you out on the water now. That way you'll find what you like/need or dislike and should avoid. Sell it cheap in a year or two and move on to the boat that suits your needs.
My last boat was a Dufour 27ft named "Dufour Now" by the previous owner. When I think of all the boats that I looked at and the bullets that I dodged by choosing to go small - go now, I'm truly grateful for the advice to get what will do for now.

[boatman61]

QUOTE..
You surmised correctly. I have been looking at boats between 40 and 50 feet. I have experience sailing boats under 40 and over 40, and I have always found the larger boats significantly more comfortable to be aboard and a far better experience. I'd rather not get a boat at all than get one that I will hate being in. I will probably just stick to chartering if I can't find a boat I like honestly.
QUOTE..

In that case stating your proposed budget would be a help for us in aiding your quest.
If your searching in Holland and surrounding countries a quick search throws up boats in the desired size from 1950's to 2005 in the High €50K to €100K in Europe.

[HeinSdL]

I am very fortunate to have a very good boat, well built and finished*, etc. But also quite pricey.

I often hear the joke, a stupid joke I find, of "the owner of a boat experiences two happy moments, the day of purchase and the day of sale". I don't recognize myself AT ALL as that kind of owner, I enjoy almost every moment I have on my boat. Sailing, exploring, repairing, maintaining, chasing rats, etc. Well the rat thing wasn't so pleasant nor running aground in de Waddenzee at high tide but otherwise it has been and remains a continuous adventure.

My boat has always been in good shape but wow! what an amount of work (and money) it takes to keep it up to scratch. Time wise I have managed it besides my job and family. The only situation I would imagine feasible for a project boat would therefore be one where I have plenty of money, not much in the way of professional responsibilities and ideally no family. Otherwise I think it's just not possible (my view, obviously others may well disagree with that).

However, if I did want to undertake something along the lines of a project boat it would be 1. small, 2. low tech, 3. fundamentally OK (hull sound, mast in place).

*though you'd be surprised. I was doing some rewiring recently installing LFP etc, and am using standard copper cables. Swearing in church! according to CF and I agree. Yet.... not one of the original cables put in by the builder is tinted copper and it's been there for almost 25 years, though turning green here and there... so not getting too worked up about that for now. And then now with continuous rain, I have leaks along the deck/hull join, here and there, not sure what to do about that, etc, etc. Long story short, this is not a project boat, yet....

[cupofjoe]

Originally Posted by Craig Cape Town

What is your motivation for considering a project boat?
Do you want to sail or have a hobby fixing boats?
Get something cheap that will get you out on the water now. That way you'll find what you like/need or dislike and should avoid. Sell it cheap in a year or two and move on to the boat that suits your needs.
My last boat was a Dufour 27ft named "Dufour Now" by the previous owner. When I think of all the boats that I looked at and the bullets that I dodged by choosing to go small - go now, I'm truly grateful for the advice to get what will do for now.

Great advice (along with all the other posts in this thread), thank you.

I would like to fix boats but maybe it's better as a side project in the future.