Propane for Dummies

[deblen]

Originally Posted by coopec43

Didn't think of that (That's why I'll leave it to the experts)

Just came across this article which should bring me up-to-date.


NOTE After looking at the linked article I am definitely leaving it to the experts.



Safe Boat Propane Installations

The advice comes from a firm of Marine Surveyors

Please click on the following link


Safe Boat Propane System Installation

1. This write-up from a Canadian Marine Surveyor,is IMHO, about the best marine LPG info available on the I-net.If you follow his recommendations,you will be adhering to ABYC LPG guide & exceeding CE/EU practice. CE/EU still allows hose clamp/jubilee clip joints -a definite no-no in ABYC,which demands copper flare or LPG hose.
2. N.America does not require LPG installation by a "Certified Gas Tech" yet.
3. Item 5. in OP's list-Install a LPG gas detector alarm,with or without solenoid control,is highly recommended. The proper location for the sniffer/sensor element is not the damp? bilge,if possible.Dampness eventually destroys the sensor. The recommended location is near the sole(floor)& below the joint where LPG connects to the appliance.
4.You do not need a separate manual LPG shutoff valve. Just turn the tank valve off,when leaving boat. Turn the solenoid valve on/off manually each time you use LPG appliance.
5. IMHO-the small amount of LPG left in the feed line from solenoid to appliance is hardly worth burning off. It just makes the appliance that much more difficult(scary?) to re-light,since you must re-fill the line with LPG & this can take time. Impatience may cause a "safe but scary" woof when appliance does light. If you do leave gas in the line,it allows you to check the guage for possible leakage as soon as you come aboard.
6. Learn to use a liquid soap soaked sponge on LPG joints often.


Cheers/Len

[Reeve21]

There is a lot of information on how to perform a leak down test on the internet. Here is one link from a respected source in the US https://www.boatus.com/expert-advice...ropane-systems

My own experience was that I could smell propane in the locker when the bottle was opened. No smell down below. Leak down test confirmed I had a leak somewhere. Soap and water on connections showed no leaks. That caused someone much smarter than me to say that I had ruled out everything except the solenoid. He was correct. Replaced it, problem solved.

[Thomas1985]

The propane locker of EVERY boat we looked at was a fire hazard.

I really want to replace our stove and oven with electric or some other solution. Anyone done so and like the result?

[Jammer]

A few Facts to Consider:

• If you are not familiar with gas plumbing, the propane installation on your sailboat is probably not the place to start learning. Some of this does require experience, how tight is tight enough, how sealed is sealed enough, etc.
• The standards, regulations, and materials used vary considerably from one country to the next. It is important not to mix and match. U.S. installation rules are more strict and the materials longer lasting but do not require periodic inspection, the UK is the other way around.
• You should have a gas detector and a solenoid valve and have them wired together in such a way that the solenoid valve closes in the event of a leak.

Originally Posted by Thomas1985

I really want to replace our stove and oven with electric or some other solution. Anyone done so and like the result?

Regarding electric, you'll find that any number of people have gone this route. There are pros and cons and it is too early for there to be enough evidence to illustrate which approach is safer.

The transition from the old pressurized alcohol stoves to propane stoves resulted in a clear improvement in safety borne out in actuarial data.

Pressurized natural gas was tried for a while but fell out of favor, parts supplies and fuel are no longer readily available. I think overall there was a conclusion that it wasn't materially safer than propane.

Butane canister stoves, AKA Korean box stoves, are used on some smaller boats despite the fact that they are not recommended for use on boats. Surveyors and insurance companies believe they are unsafe. Evidence and facts are hard to find so there's a lot of supposition and what-aboutism instead. All cooking fuels pose risk.

Solid fuel (wood/coal) is a choice. Traditional, not any safer than propane IMO.

There are a couple of manufacturers of diesel marine cookstoves.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Foswick

I know less about propane than the average modern human. My new boat has a propane stove/oven. It was obvious, to me, that the system was probably not installed according to recommended best practices, and that it had suffered a bit of neglect.

The survey identified a couple of specific issues, but I want to give it a complete end-to-end examination and possibly a complete or partial overhaul. I just want to make sure it is done right.

Where can I find a good reference for the proper way to do this? A lot of what I am finding assume you know at least something about propane systems. Here's what I've gleaned, so far:

1. Propane tanks need to be stored in a dedicated storage locker that vents overboard and is otherwise isolated from the cabin.
2. Attached to the tank is a pressure gauge which is either built into the regulator or precedes the regulator. The regulator reduces from tank pressure to appliance pressure. I guess there are low pressure regulators and high pressure regulators. I believe boats pretty much use low pressure systems (about 0.5 psi).
3. Then comes the solenoid valve. To me, it seems more reliable to use a manual shutoff valve, but I guess that's not how most folks do it. I guess I get why.
4. All of the above needs to be in the vapor-tight propane locker. An LPG supply hose passes through a vapor-tight fitting out of the propane locker directly to the stove in one piece - no intermittent fittings.
5. Not strictly required, but it is smart to have a propane detector as low in the boat as possible which is ideally wired directly to the solenoid.

There's some additional nonsense about 3/8" vs 1/4" fittings that seems to add unnecessary complications. I only have the one appliance and it takes a 3/8" connection, so I don't "think" I need to worry about this. The regulator will have a pigtail to the tank, and a 3/8" outlet. So, I should only be dealing with 3/8", right?

I think that the purpose of the pressure gauge is that it allows you to detect leaks. Presumably, you would open the system, then shut off the propane at the tank. The pressure should not drop. (Not sure how long to wait before calling it good.)

Do I have it right? Am I missing something important?

I'll have someone look at it when I am done - just because of the stakes, but this doesn't seem hard and it seems like something I can easily do myself.

My article on Safe Boat Propane Installations has already been referenced. But if you want the detailed specs ... PM me an email address and I'll send you a copy of the ABYC Standards on which the article is based.

[Thomas1985]

I don’t think I want to go this route on a big boat, but when we were young we had a bayliner 2452 with a non pressurized alcohol stove. Basically a giant zippo lighter.

We actually really liked it for minimal use. It was safe and had noting to break.

[mark0978]

We just pulled our propane tank out and replaced it with an Induction cooktop. We also bought an air frier which is almost a disposable appliance nowadays. Lithium has changed the way we do things here. I can run the A/C off of solar power alone, I can cook with a cooktop I can move from inside to outside (to keep the heat out) and making water is something else I can get straight from the solar panels via the inverter of which we have 2 and will have a third within 30 days.

Now I just need someone to buy the solar cooker because we don't need it anymore and the 2 aluminum gas bottles!

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Thomas1985

I don’t think I want to go this route on a big boat, but when we were young we had a bayliner 2452 with a non pressurized alcohol stove. Basically a giant zippo lighter.

We actually really liked it for minimal use. It was safe and had noting to break.

I had a fire on my previous boat because of one of those once. I've written about it here before, but the short story is that it was breezy and I had the portlights open. The portlight directed the breeze downward towards the stove during a gust and blew the flame backwards into the housing where it melted the plastic controls which then caught fire. Since the controls were melted I was unable to shut off the flame.


I put out the fire with water.

[Thomas1985]

Jammer,

sub-optimal

[Foswick]

I used an alcohol stove for about 12 years and loved it. So simple and safe.

[wholybee]

The standard installation in the US has the valve on the tank as the manual shutoff, and the solenoid which is controlled from near the stove, so you are likely to always turn it off when not in use.
Regarding certifications etc., I'm not sure you can get an installation certified in the USA. A surveyor either spots something wrong and includes it on the survey, or they don't. And I have never had any issues with insurance with my self installed system.
Foswik seems to have all the rules understood. There are kits sold that include the pigtail, gauge, regulator, and solenoid. I used one for my install, but found the quality to be poor and later upgraded the solenoid and regulator.

[wholybee]

Originally Posted by Foswick

I used an alcohol stove for about 12 years and loved it. So simple and safe.

I have to disagree. Liquid fuel in little bottles that you have to carry and refuel the stove while underway is not safe. At least not any safer than propane. It really isn't difficult to install a safe propane system, as long as you are not super lazy.

[Foswick]

Originally Posted by wholybee

I have to disagree.

Well, alchohol is objectively safer as a substance. It is less volatile with a higher flashpoint, making accidental ignition less likely. Alcohol is liquid at room temperature and does not require pressurized storage.

Whether it is safer, in practice, depends on how you treat it. We store our fuel in a metal container outside of the cabin and fill the stove canisters in the cockpit where any spillage just evaporates away. We are careful not to overfill them.

Any spill is an immediate and transient issue that occurs when you are actively handling the fuel. It will not leak explosive vapors into the bilge while you sleep. (I suppose it is technically possible, but I challenge anyone to find an example of this having happened.)

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Foswick

Well, alchohol is objectively safer as a substance. It is less volatile with a higher flashpoint, making accidental ignition less likely. Alcohol is liquid at room temperature and does not require pressurized storage.

Whether it is safer, in practice, depends on how you treat it. We store our fuel in a metal container outside of the cabin and fill the stove canisters in the cockpit where any spillage just evaporates away. We are careful not to overfill them.

Any spill is an immediate and transient issue that occurs when you are actively handling the fuel. It will not leak explosive vapors into the bilge while you sleep. (I suppose it is technically possible, but I challenge anyone to find an example of this having happened.)

#6 on Boats US list of boat fire causes.

6) Stove fire 1%
Stove fires appear to be less common (1%) than in the past, probably due to fewer alcohol stoves being installed on new boats. Still, alcohol can be a dangerous fuel; though it can’t explode, an alcohol flame is hard to see. One fire was started when a member tried to light the stove and gave up because he couldn’t see the flame. Unfortunately, he had succeeded, but didn’t realize it until he got a call from the fire department. Only one fire was started by propane; a portable stove fell off a counter and ignited a cushion.

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by Thomas1985

The propane locker of EVERY boat we looked at was a fire hazard.

I really want to replace our stove and oven with electric or some other solution. Anyone done so and like the result?

Brilliant! (You've got me thinking)

I already have a gas locker and a 2 burner stove installed. I got a quote the other day to have it plumbed up - $3200 That would buy a lot of solar cell and storage battery. (I already have a 120A MPPT controller)

I think I'll rip the stove out and replace it with a double induction hob. I already have a 24V 2000W/4000W inverter, a 1400W microwave installed and a 2000W induction hob.