Propane for Dummies

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by dlj

Thank you for this.

I believe I'm working with the most recent edition, it's the ABYC A-1 July 2018 edition. When I was refitting my boat I downloaded all the current ABYC standards that I felt I needed. I'd been an ABYC member for several years but didn't renew this year because I have been cutting expenses as I'm now retired. I may have to put that membership back on the active list.

Anyway - I beleive you are referring to:

1.7.3 A readily accessible manual or electrically operated (e.g., solenoid) shutoff valve shall be installed in the low or high-pressure line at the fuel supply (see A-1.7.6.1 for valve location requirements).

Then, the A-1.7.6.1 verbage is:

1.7.6.1 LPG cylinders, cylinder valves, regulating equipment, and safety devices shall be readily accessible, secured for sea conditions, and protected from the weather and against mechanical damage.

1.7.6.1.1 The cylinder shall be installed in a dedicated locker meeting the requirements of A-1.8.

EXCEPTION: LPG cylinders installed on the exterior of the boat where escaping gases will flow directly overboard.

Nothing in A-1.8 addresses the valve locations.

So what is confusing to me is the statement "shutoff valve shall be installed in the low or high-pressure line at the fuel supply" in 1.7.3 coupled with the statements:

1.7.3.1 The valve(s) or it's control shall be operable in the vicinity of the appliance(s) in the event of a fire at any appliance(s). If the cylinder shutoff valve is readily accessible from the vicinity of the appliance, the shutoff valve on the supply line is not required.

I'm having a hard time getting my head wrapped around what appear to be conflicting statements.

How do you have readily accessible access to the cylinder shutoff valve while still complying with all the rest of the regulations for a LPG installation? It seems you either can have a valve inside the boat, or you stove has to be outside the boat... Like I said, I'm no expert in this standard. I'm just trying to understand how this works... It sure seems like you can have a manual shutoff valve inside the boat...

dj

I surveyed a Vancouver 27 owned by a tall guy who could stand at the stove, lean over the companionway, open the propane locker in the cockpit and shut off the valve on the tank ... No solenoid required and totally ABYC compliant.

[Statistical]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

I surveyed a Vancouver 27 owned by a tall guy who could stand at the stove, lean over the companionway, open the propane locker in the cockpit and shut off the valve on the tank ... No solenoid required and totally ABYC compliant.

Uncommon but good example to show how why the guidelines are written the way they are.

[Iron E]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

I surveyed a Vancouver 27 owned by a tall guy who could stand at the stove, lean over the companionway, open the propane locker in the cockpit and shut off the valve on the tank ... No solenoid required and totally ABYC compliant.

I read about that Vancouver in your Propane blog and was wondering what the story was... thanks for that BTW

Your story aside, it doesn't seem like ABYC would write a code that pertained to such a very unique circumstance.

As I said earlier, it makes more sense to me that the "Readily Accessible" valve was directed more toward large yachts and/or other vessels with outdoor stoves/ovens/BBQ's

[senormechanico]

Originally Posted by capt jgw

They draw quite a bit of power, and get quite warm if left on. So good reason to make sure to turn it off as soon as you're done cooking.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that the solenoid valve depends on gas flow to cool itself.

[capt jgw]

Originally Posted by senormechanico

I seem to remember reading somewhere that the solenoid valve depends on gas flow to cool itself.

Makes sense. If the valve is open but the stove is off, there's no flow so it's going to get pretty hot.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by senormechanico

I seem to remember reading somewhere that the solenoid valve depends on gas flow to cool itself.

Should not do. A lower power one is sub 1 watt, which is easily dissipated by a device what that much surface area. Even a high power one is only a few watts.


It's the coil which gets hot, and that's pretty far from the gas flow.


That being said, you shouldn't have the solenoid open if the gas is not being used. Defeats the whole purpose of it.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Benz

If I was writing standards, I'd specify that NO electricity should enter a propane locker, since there's a danger of sparks--what if the solenoid shorts out? KABOOM! No thanks--I'll keep volatile gases and electricity as far apart as possible.
When you prefer a solenoid over an inside ball valve, you're just exchanging one remote contingengy for another, neither of which is statistically likely to fail.

Automatic propane shut off valves (or propane "fuses") are (or were) allowed in some jurisdictions instead of an electronic solenoid.

Our old yacht was constructed with this system. These are mechanical devices. This avoids any electrical circuit in the propane locker. It is also (I suspect) more reliable. The level of safety is probably a little less than an electronic solenoid, but it is an option worth considering if regulations allow.

[Foswick]

I've been reading the occasional advice to employ a sacrificial anode with the tank, similar to what they do when burying a steel tank. I can't see how this would be effective on a boat unless the tank and anode were both submerged (in which case I have bigger problems).

However, thinking back, it seems like I may have seen boats with this. I think I just assumed it was some grounding mechanism, having to do with the solenoid. Perhaps I'm misremembering though - not something I've ever paid much attention to.

[cal40john]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

Automatic propane shut off valves (or propane "fuses") are (or were) allowed in some jurisdictions instead of an electronic solenoid.

Our old yacht was constructed with this system. These are mechanical devices. This avoids any electrical circuit in the propane locker. It is also (I suspect) more reliable. The level of safety is probably a little less than an electronic solenoid, but it is an option worth considering if regulations allow.

I presume those shut off the flow if it exceeds a certain rate, which makes you safe from a broken hose, but doesn't if there is a hole that mimics the normal flow rate.

If it is a similar device that was in my system, it caused mysterious shutoffs if you opened the valve too fast on an unpressurized hose. (We also had a solenoid, wasn't even aware of the high flow shutoff initially.)

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by cal40john

I presume those shut off the flow if it exceeds a certain rate, which makes you safe from a broken hose, but doesn't if there is a hole that mimics the normal flow rate.

Yes, like an electrical fuse, protection from slow leaks is the weakness of the propane "fuse" system. This is mitigated by a shut off valve (or better a second combined fuse/shut off valve) as close as practical to where the propane line enters the cabin space. This is usually mandated where this system is permitted. The periodic use of pressure gauge (or a bubble detector) to detect slow leaks is also good practice in any propane system.

The propane fuse option is not perfect, it trades some safety for a simpler more robust system that does not rely on electricity. Of course you could fit both systems for the ultimate in safety, although I think the very rare instances of propane safety problems (especially given the often poorly fitted and maintained system fitted to many cruising yachts) means this would be overkill.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Thomas1985

The propane locker of EVERY boat we looked at was a fire hazard.

I really want to replace our stove and oven with electric or some other solution. Anyone done so and like the result?

Yes full electric cooking and love it:

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...-276684-7.html

Pete

[Pete7]

When we did use gas, I had a bubble tester in the gas locker to see if there was a problem.

https://www.midlandchandlers.co.uk/p...71-808-n-29002

[noelex 77]

Electric cooking is fantastic.

Keep in mind that if considering ditching the propane completely then (for most boats) it requires cruising to be confined to areas of reasonable solar production, or frequent access to shore power, the option of a generator or running the main engine for electric production. Make sure these limitations fit in with your cruising plans.

Unfortunately, some cruising boats are ditching propane without considering how they will balance the energy budget when in areas of poor solar insolation.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Iron E

I read about that Vancouver in your Propane blog and was wondering what the story was... thanks for that BTW

Your story aside, it doesn't seem like ABYC would write a code that pertained to such a very unique circumstance.

As I said earlier, it makes more sense to me that the "Readily Accessible" valve was directed more toward large yachts and/or other vessels with outdoor stoves/ovens/BBQ's

That is not what they teach in the Standards Certification course.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Benz

If I was writing standards, I'd specify that NO electricity should enter a propane locker, since there's a danger of sparks--what if the solenoid shorts out?

Thats why solenoids are ignition protected.