Propane Question - Should I be Worried?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by AlanR

Even a bubbler will not find all leaks. While transferring a fresh gas bottle to my boat, I accidentally dropped it in the water. I was amazed to see a string of bubbles coming out of the side of the bottle.

That particular bottle never got on my boat, but I weighed it, and it was only half full. When I returned it to the retailer, he replaced it of course, but expressed no surprise. None of the tests mentioned so far, except the hand-held gas detector, would have noticed this leak.

Be warned.

Wow, that's terrifying. Thanks for posting that.

[TreblePlink]

AND, the presumption is that a small leak on deck or in the vented locker is not a hazard due to ventilation. It's the 0.5 psi post-regulator and post safety valve path where a leak is dangerous.

[Dadrock33]

One item of concern for me, as I'm thinking of adding propane to our boat for cooking, etc, is that there shouldn't be any other hose or plumbing connections inside your boat. I may be wrong here (I know many are waiting to jump on that concept) but I think that "the standards" are that there aren't to be ANY other connections to the LPG line other than straight to the device (stove, water heater, furnace, whatever). I believe that this applies to all devices on board - i.e. if you have two devices using LPG, then you have to have two lines coming from the tank locker to those devices. You are NOT to add in a splitter/"T"/yoke halfway through the boat to supply the, let's say, "new device". My concept from earlier instances of LPG on an RV was to hang a boar's bristle brush in the same locker to remind me to use the soap testing check often . . . it's easy and it works.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by AnglaisInHull

Okay, as earlier noted paranoia is a good thing here, but the recommendations to remove the tanks from the boat while on the hard over the winter?

Given that there is no gas loss with the valves closed (yes, I'm sure of that) I don't see why on the boat is less safe than any of the other possible storage locations (e.g. The tool shed in my back yard). Any reasons someone can offer?

It's your boat. You said you had the tanks revalued, it is possible to have a leak where the valve is threaded into the tank or the tank has a pinhole leak.

Your shed probably is leaky air wise. Your gas locker on the boat probably isn't and mud dobbers, wasps love openings like the locker drain.

Again it's your boat. It may seem like paranoia over kill but err on the safe side.

[TreblePlink]

Hopefully not too much of a thread drift here - I plan to use LPG for cooking and heating. Gotta have a remote safety valve in the vented locker.

Being the Ampere-Hour miser that I am, I don't like spending 0.5 to 1 amp continuously to keep the solenoid valve on. Are there lower current valves, or will I need to use a standard valve with a mechanical extension into the cabin?

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by sailor_ed

Capsaicin is the active ingredient in hot peppers, ethyl mercaptan is the chemical added to propane to give it its odor. Explains why no one adds a little propane to their chili!

It gives you gas.

[dcstrng]

Originally Posted by CascadeThumper

Couldn't they be solved by using good propane sniffer/alarm when onboard and simply shutting off the valve and disconnecting the hose when away? If away for an expended time. Remove the tank from the boat. And a proper install/inspection by a pro (licensed, bonded, insured) might be wise.

Yes, that's good advice; like gasoline powered auxiliaries, they can be maintained in a prudent matter and I've used electric solenoid, and sniffers as well as manual shut-offs on my previous installations -- my philosophy was to put both the solenoid and the sniffer on the same circuit; my rationale was that is if the breaker blew or power was interrupted, it also shut off the gas near the source, and in any case if the gas wasn't in use I keep the manual valve off... What they can't be, is ignored -- so if a skipper senses anything that reduces their confidence, it needs to be investigated and set aright. Thankfully these things rarely hit the magical mixture of oxygen, fuel and ignition -- but when they do, there is no <control/alt/delete>.

[Jd1]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I don't have a pressure gauge on my installation -- it's not typical in the UK. What is good for? Leakdown tests?

It's a requirement in Canada and possibly he US as well.
I believe the primary reason is in fact for leak down tests.

[boatpoker]

Actually there is absolutely no mention of propane/LPG in either Transport Canada standards or the US Code of Federal Regulations regarding propane/LPG in pleasure craft.

ABYC Standards do have a specification but these are voluntary.
Some (most) insurance companies will require compliance with ABYC Standards, if it is noted as deficient in the survey.

[Martkimwat]

Originally Posted by TreblePlink

OK, so without a pressure gauge (which can be used for leak testing) how do you know when you're close to being out of propane?

The Alde bubbler will show you straight away if you have a leak so you can check it every time you turn on the gas at the bottles. Regarding telling if you are nearly out of gas, you surely have a fresh tank standing by? and if not, then use one of these magnetic indicators that work on the temperature of the bottle to show the amount of gas left in the tank, like this one. Very cheap.
://www.amazon.co.uk/SFXC-Caravan-Motorhome-Magnetic-Indicator/dp/B001I28QO6/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1509304193&sr=8-2&keywords=magnetic+gas+indicator

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Dadrock33

One item of concern for me, as I'm thinking of adding propane to our boat for cooking, etc, is that there shouldn't be any other hose or plumbing connections inside your boat. I may be wrong here (I know many are waiting to jump on that concept) but I think that "the standards" are that there aren't to be ANY other connections to the LPG line other than straight to the device (stove, water heater, furnace, whatever). I believe that this applies to all devices on board - i.e. if you have two devices using LPG, then you have to have two lines coming from the tank locker to those devices. You are NOT to add in a splitter/"T"/yoke halfway through the boat to supply the, let's say, "new device". My concept from earlier instances of LPG on an RV was to hang a boar's bristle brush in the same locker to remind me to use the soap testing check often . . . it's easy and it works.

Cooking with propane is bad enough -- do you actually want to heat water or space with it, too? Diesel fuel is much better for that -- you have to hump a lot of propane to actually heat the boat with it. Multiply the appliances and you multiply the risks.

There are reasonably safe propane heaters, but they need to be specifically designed for marine use, with sealed burners. Dickinson makes a good one. But $$$$. Diesel fuel is much better for this! As far as heating water is concerned -- I'm not aware that a propane appliance for this exists which is ABYC compliant.

If you want both heat and hot water, the best way to do this is with a diesel fuel powered hydronic furnace. It's not all that expensive, it's vastly safer, and cheaper and easier to run -- no humping propane by the ton.

[skipgundlach]

Originally Posted by jmschmidt

Just open the locker and drop a match in and see what happens. For crap sakes, get that damn thing out of the boat. If you are wintering in the water one standup paddle boarder paddling by smoking a cigarette will blow himself, and your boat to bits. Or if you are on the hard that poor security guard taking a smoke break in the middle of the night while strolling around the yard will do the same thing.

I'm not an engineer, nor even play one on TV.

But if I read you correctly, you are asserting that a propane leak within a vented locker will explode, with the flame propagation apparently traveling up the drain tube, if someone passes the outside of the boat - presumably close enough to touch it - if they have a lit cigarette.

I would appreciate being schooled: What concentration (use PPM or whatever the industry standard is) of propane will ignite, let alone explode, in the presence of a lit cigarette (not open flame or spark)? And what rate of flow is needed to support that level of concentration in an open (presume windless, to help the assertion) environment such as (no wind, so) flat water or ground? And, now that you have that information, how long would a full 20# tank of propane take to empty at that flow rate?

As forcefully ("For crap sakes, get that damn thing out of the boat.") as you put it, I'm certain you have those specifics at hand, and that they must be such that hours or perhaps days could pass before the putative tank was exhausted, or any such danger would be over quickly.

And, I must travel in different circles/anchorages; I've never seen a SUP paddler smoking. Since that was the first instance you mentioned, apparently that is common in your travels. Where (country and anchorage will suffice) do you see them routinely?

See the opening statement for reference, but on open ground or water, I have some difficulty perceiving the amount of propane necessary to support combustion. As you are quite certain that it's a hazard, please provide support for your assertion, so that I may become paranoid over the amount of propane which may, under any circumstances, escape my locker.

Otherwise, thanks for the guffaw.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

As far as heating water is concerned -- I'm not aware that a propane appliance for this exists which is ABYC compliant.

You are correct, Despite one manufacturers claims and quite common usage, no propane water heater meets ABYC Standards and neither do any propane refrigerators despite their (somewhat less common) usage.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by jmschmidt

Just open the locker and drop a match in and see what happens. For crap sakes, get that damn thing out of the boat. If you are wintering in the water one standup paddle boarder paddling by smoking a cigarette will blow himself, and your boat to bits. Or if you are on the hard that poor security guard taking a smoke break in the middle of the night while strolling around the yard will do the same thing.

Too silly to warrant a thoughtful reply.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by skipgundlach

thanks for the guffaw.

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Too silly to warrant a thoughtful reply.

+1

Although it is rational from a safety POV to decide to simply do without propane on a boat, even to do so without being fully aware of what scenarios actually do pose a danger.

Fear-mongering via unrealistic even laughable examples does not help the "cause".