Propane Shut-Off Solenoid

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by jim_thomsen

Thanks for the info...I will NOT put it in foam!
Jim, the solenoid I just replaced was made by Trident Marine and purchased from West Marine. The connections still looked OK but the solenoid no longer worked (I tested it again after removing it). I'm not sure what brands or prices I'll find here, but the local store (Opua Marina) was out.
This time I have used butt connectors with built in shrink tubing and also covered them with another peice of heat shrink. I'll experiment with some small plastic box.

And I do try not to sail with water over our decks for long periods of time...but how come the wind is coming from right where we want to go?

G'Day again, Jim,

So, when you tested the failed unit, what had failed? Open circuit in the coil? Coil intact but no valve action? Valve action but not really opening/closing?
Just curious... might have some bearing on how to avoid in the future, though!

On your new unit, the sealed connectors are good. You might also have a look at where the wires enter the coil... Are they well sealed there? Water wicking into the interior might be a problem.

And I'd second the idea of spraying with some corrosion inhibitor. There are lots of them around, and I know that Maxwell recommends CRC "Longlife" on their electric windlasses which are subjected to frequent salty showers.

Again, good luck.

Cheers,
Jim

[DeepFrz]

Zee, I think it should be outside the cabin in the box with the tank.

Propane Systems by Don Casey

[zeehag]

Originally Posted by DeepFrz

Zee, I think it should be outside the cabin in the box with the tank.

Propane Systems by Don Casey

ok .. you mount your way --i will mount s per uscg regs. inside the house with the toggle and in the lazarette--exactly on the other side of bulkhead --with the solenoid part. it does NOT belong in the box with the tank, as it is ELECTRICITY.
one does not place ELECTRICITY into a potential leakage of GAS situtation without going BOOM . have fun and enjoy th next life.
ROFL. have a gooood visit with the angels. and , while you are there, say hay to my grandpoppa. he died in 1979.

[Vasco]

Originally Posted by jim_thomsen

Thanks for the info...I will NOT put it in foam!
Jim, the solenoid I just replaced was made by Trident Marine and purchased from West Marine. The connections still looked OK but the solenoid no longer worked ?

Trident had a bunch of bad solenoids quite a few years ago and replaced them no charge. I would talk to Trident, they may have had another bad batch. The failure is not immediate or complete all at once, it starts with what seems a constricted flow and then quits completely later.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by zeehag

the way they are installed is on a bulkheaad-- the toggle is a pretty one with a switch like a light switch in a house. the solenoid itself is on th either side of the bulkhead ihn a protected area. the only thing that fouls them and makes them lose function is leaving them on at all times which some folks seem to enjoy doing. these are meant to be USED, so are inside the house near the stove so they are able to be used. consider this--the solenoid is ELECTRIC, the tank holds BOOM gas. why on earth would you EVER want to place an electrical spark NEXT to the BOOM gas tank????? makes no sense. try installing it correctly and see how long it lasts. the separation thing is to get the boom gas out of the house
the solenoid stays inside the house. duh. are you going to go outside into bad weather just to cook dinner?? the switch is not rated for outdoor use.

Yes, the switch should be near the point of use, tied to a propane detector (not just a switch). The solenoid valve should be in the propane locker or a functionally identical area.

Yes, the solenoid valves are rated for explosive environments (unlike a simple toggle switch) and cannot cause ignition. However, having the solenoid in any area NOT vented in the same manner as a propane locker means that any failure between the locker and the solenoid is not protected by the propane detector/solenoid valve and can leak propane into the hull.

But please check the code, to see if I am incorrect. Codes are based upon loss expereince and are generally written by the equipment industry as much as the government. I don't second guess codes unless I am SURE I know all of the reasoning. I sit on several standards committees (not this one) and they are generally VERY careful with reasoning and expereince. They have generally reviewed many accidents.

[cal40john]

Originally Posted by zeehag

ok .. you mount your way --i will mount s per uscg regs. inside the house with the toggle and in the lazarette--exactly on the other side of bulkhead --with the solenoid part. it does NOT belong in the box with the tank, as it is ELECTRICITY.
one does not place ELECTRICITY into a potential leakage of GAS situtation without going BOOM . have fun and enjoy th next life.
ROFL. have a gooood visit with the angels. and , while you are there, say hay to my grandpoppa. he died in 1979.

I'm probably going to discover like in other CFRs that recreational vessels don't have any requirements.

From:
http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_20...cfr25.45-2.pdf
46 CFR Subpart 25.45-2 Cooking systems on vessels carrying passengers for hire.

(6) If the fuel supply line of an LPG
or CNG system enters an enclosed
space on the vessel, a remote shut-off
valve must be installed that can be operated
from a position adjacent to the
appliance. The valve must be located
between the fuel tank and the point
where the fuel supply line enters the
enclosed portion of the vessel. A power
operated valve installed to meet this
requirement must be of a type that will

fail closed.

The above says "The valve must be located between the fuel tank and the point where the fuel supply line enters the enclosed portion of the vessel."
The lazarette is an enclosed space in the vessel (well most vessels). The whole point of a remote valve is if a leak develops in the stove or hose leading to the stove little propane will wind up in your bilge, just what's in the hose. If a leak develops on the upstream side of the remote valve, allowing the whole tank to empty it will be in the locker that dumps the propane overboard. If the remote valve is in the lazarette then a failure of the hose outside the tank enclosure upstream of the valve allows all the propane in the tank to accumulate in the boat. ABYC says there should only be one break in the line outside of the enclosure, and that's at the stove.

A solenoid valve has a coil embedded in a potting compound like epoxy. There is no sparking or switching or arcing of any sort. You would have to have your wires chafe through and cause heat or sparks during the same time frame that your plumbing decided to leak and empty the tank for the electricity to ignite the propane.

John

[jim_thomsen]

Our boat was made in Europe and the CE rules are that the solenoid must be in the vented locker with the gas tanks as I understand it. Then we have a switch next to the stove to turn the gas on and off.

[surfmachine]

My solenoid used to draw 2.5 amps when operating and got very warm to touch, it was mounted outside on the aft deck, next to the bottles, outside on the deck. I had one west marine solenoid fail after 3 months and then installed a chinese one off of ebay for 24aud, works great!
Dont enclose them in any insulation or air tight containers, but keep them clean and dry as possible, I sprayed mine with cold galvanising spray and always carried a spare. They give great peace of mind when coupled with switch in the galley with a bright red led tell tale light adjacent to the stove. I also had two gas alarms mounted, one under the stove and one in the bilge.
Fair winds from Keith.

[meyermm]

Zeehag - Your wrong the others are right, before I read the following posts I had already wondered why you would not want the gas to be shut off at the bottle for safety. The whole point of the valve is a simple way of turning the gas off at the bottle without actually having to go there every time you want to use gas plus the warning light indicating it is on. As others have said a gas leak between the bottle and your solenoid will be unaffected by the valve working or not.

[perchance]

Could it be a wiring issue? Poor connections causing increased resistance or undersized wire for the distance traveled? Just a thought.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by thinwater

... I believe the code calls for the solenoid to be in the locker or outside, not in the cabin, since its function is to isolate. Certainly the regulator MUST be in the locker, since they are vented and can leak badly ...

Indeed!

[AnchorageGuy]

Originally Posted by zeehag

ok .. you mount your way --i will mount s per uscg regs. inside the house with the toggle and in the lazarette--exactly on the other side of bulkhead --with the solenoid part. it does NOT belong in the box with the tank, as it is ELECTRICITY.
one does not place ELECTRICITY into a potential leakage of GAS situtation without going BOOM . have fun and enjoy th next life.
ROFL. have a gooood visit with the angels. and , while you are there, say hay to my grandpoppa. he died in 1979.

Would you mind passing on which Coast Guard Regulations state this? Chuck

[donradcliffe]

My Trident solenoid is going strong after 20 years, but maybe that's because I carry a spare, or maybe mine is old enough to have not been made in China.

[Auspicious]

Hi Jim,

I've found that stuff washes into the propane locker and clogs up the drain. Water builds up and then splashes around causing corrosion. I check the locker every three(ish) days underway and crank down pretty hard on the lid latch.

Three months is real fast. Maybe there is an electrical fault in the wires to the solenoid, exposing power to the water and resulting in galvanic corrosion. Just a thought.

[GordMay]

Per Title 46 Shipping: 184.240 Gas systems.
➥ http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text....1.3.19.2.63.5

Cooking systems using liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) and compressed natural gas (CNG) must meet the following requirements:

(a) The design, installation and testing of each LPG system must meet ABYC A–1, “Marine Liquefied Petroleum Gas (LPG) Systems” Chapter 6 of NFPA 302, or other standard specified by the Commandant.

ABYC A-1, Marine Liquefied Petroleum Gas (LPG) Systems
➥ http://www.abycinc.org/committees/A-01.pdf

A-1.7.2 Each appliance shall be served by a separate
low pressure, i.e., 50 Mb (5 kPa), regulated supply line that
shall originate inside the cylinder locker or protective
enclosure.

A-1.7.3 A readily accessible manual or electrically
operated (e.g., solenoid) shut-off valve shall be installed in
the low or high-pressure line at the fuel supply. See the
requirements in A-1.7.6.1 for valve location requirements.

A-1.7.6.1 LPG cylinders, cylinder valves, regulating
equipment, and safety devices shall be readily accessible,
secured for sea conditions, and protected from the weather
and against mechanical damage, and shall be

A-1.7.6.1.1 installed in a ventilated location on the
exterior of the boat where escaping gases will flow directly
overboard, or,

A-1.7.6.1.2 if the escaping vapors will not flow directly
overboard, the cylinder shall be installed in a dedicated
locker meeting the requirements of A-1.8 LPG
LOCKERS.