Questions About Steel Boats

[Hiracer]

One final observation about our two boats.

Our prior plastic boat carried 66 gallons of water, which was quite a bit for a 1981 boat, but only 17 gallons of diesel. The water was stored under the settees. Because the boat did not have pan-and-liner construction, we still had more than average storage for a 33' boat.

We now carry 120 gallons of water and 99 gallons of diesel, plus 17 gallons of kerosene for the heater, plus 35 gallons of black water, and 5 gallons of hot water. AND THE SETTEES ARE COMPLETELY AVAILABLE FOR STORAGE. Try that in a plastic 36' boat!

With 1" of foam, this boat is toasty in the winter and cool in the summer.

Plus, the boat was completely outfitted from SSB to a windvane, etc., all priced at quite a bit less than any stripped-down plastic 5-year old boat regardless of build quality. Why? Because Americans don't want steel boats.

Needless to say, I think steel is greatly underrated in the American market. But you do have to start with a good epoxy paint job applied professionally. The paint job is critical to the boat's success. And watch out for low SA/D ratios. I had to look long and hard to find 'my' boat.

OTOH, the boat had been on the market for two years by the time I found her, so just about anybody could have beat me to her. Of course, her original listing price was nowhere near the ultimate sale price. So I guess timing was a factor.

[brian and clare]

At the risk of stating the obvious, Man do I learn a lot on this site.

Thanks

B

[DeepFrz]

Brian, just in case you missed it, there is a link on the Dudley Dix site to a steel kit boat being built in Australia that is worth looking at.

Pratique 35 kit for steel cruising sailboat

The boats are not that different in size, but the difference in motion has to be felt to be believed.

John, isn't that what Ted Brewer is famed for. His cruising designs are very nice.

[Hiracer]

Originally Posted by DeepFrz

John, isn't that what Ted Brewer is famed for. His cruising designs are very nice.

Ted Brewer is not the only NA who designed sailboats with a comfortable motion.

He did, however, create a formula to screen for a more comfortable motion. Which is to be distinguished from a comfortable motion.

As one J-Boat owner told me, there is no such thing as a comfortable motion at sea when it's blow'n 45. And I think he's right. In certain sea states there are just degrees of discomfort. But my comeback is that my boat has great motion from about 25 knots on down, which means most of the time.

Ted is now retired. He is one of the guest speakers at the Metal Boat Society's annual meeting this year in Bellingham, WA, which is just a hop from my marina. It's a shame I'll be out sailing on our summer vacation during the meeting. I would love to show him the boat and shake his hand.

[Hiracer]

Originally Posted by brian and clare

At the risk of stating the obvious, Man do I learn a lot on this site.

Thanks

B

Here is Brewer's simple-to-read primer on boat design. It's a good start. Ted Brewer Yacht Design

I like Gerr's book even though it covers motor boats too. Very entertaining to read. Again, simple to read. Amazon.com: The Nature of Boats: Insights and Esoterica for the Nautically Obsessed: Books: Dave Gerr

Nigel is no NA, but my biases parallel his, except I don't like canoe sterns. His early chapters go into boat design a bit. Expensive book but very hard to argue it's not worth every penny.Amazon.com: Nigel Calder's Cruising Handbook: A Compendium for Coastal and Offshore Sailors: Books: Nigel Calder

And, of coure, anything Robert Perry has written is worth studying, especially his early stuff before he was doing lots of big boat projects.

[Hiracer]

I was moderately interested in steel before I purchased my first boat, but I was living in Alaska and the choices were limited. Bought a plastic boat. Loved it. Performed really well. Sold the boat long distance and got taken to cleaners over bogus case of boat pox. The boat did have a few minor, minor blisters, but the issue related to power washing off of an epoxy barrier paint. Whatever. Took a bath. Left a bad taste.

And it had always bothered me that I couldn't tell the condition of my keel bolts, and that the rudder would weep a little bit of water when boat was on the hard. And the worry about blisters was always there.

Ran into the prejudices against steel. Did some research and decided that the material's limitations could be overcomed with both good design and construction. Saw a market opportunity.

I wanted steel because I don't trust my wife and we planned to cruise rocky places with big currents, viz., inside passage from WA to AK. We love that area. Steel is not perfect insurance against crazy spouse, but it helps. (I love her, but she really has no common sense on the water--at all.)

Then I read this thread: How long lasts Fiberglass? - Boat Design Forums

Do not read this thread if you have a plastic boat already. It's about how plastic ages. That thread really pushed me over the edge because I can't afford a new boat, of whatever material, and after my experience with blisters and reading that thread I really preferred metal. Alloy first, steel second. But not many alloy boats come on the market, and they tend to sell at a premium instead of a discount. Wrong direction.

Steel has its vices. For one, it telegraphs its maintenance issues. I actually like that. Even an idiot like me can see what's wrong.

OK, I'll be quiet now. Thanks for listening.

[hellosailor]

Hiracer-
Stiffness comparisons between hulls built 20 years apart, built intentionally LIGHT FOR RACING, and heavily used, would be questionable at best.
Now add that J's are built in multiple plants around the world, and over the last 20 years the exact materials used in the layups may have changed, the resins may have changed, the glass may have been bought from different manufacturers, and any J used for 20 years probably has had multiple collision damages repaired on it.
I can't see the comparison having any science in it.

You think you like steel boats? I know a fellow claims he's got one built of monel, originally a military hull, one of a small group surplussed off to a fishing fleet, bankrupt, bought on the cheap and rebuilt as a motorsailor.

[Hiracer]

Read the ENTIRE thread.

[Terra Nova]

Originally Posted by DeepFrz

Brian, just in case you missed it, there is a link on the Dudley Dix site to a steel kit boat being built in Australia that is worth looking at.

Pratique 35 kit for steel cruising sailboat

Yo Deep,

that is quite a good looking boat. And the man did a rather creditable job of it. I have spoken with Dix, and believe he is a contributing editor to Professional Boatbuilder magazine. Interesting project.

best, andy

[Boracay]

One aspect of steel boats that has not been mentioned in this thread is that they need to have a different type of interior fit out to boats made of other materials.

This is because the hull plating, frames, bulkheads and stringers need to be inspected and repainted on a regular basis.

On "Boracay" I have elected to bolt 35mm x 70mm and 45mm x 90mm timber to the frames etc. using 8mm galvanised bolts. Plywood panels and trim pieces are screwed to this using SS screws.

The advantage of this is that I can completely remove a section of cabinet work in a few hours, and replace in about the same amount of time.

[ssullivan]

Originally Posted by Boracay

One aspect of steel boats that has not been mentioned in this thread is that they need to have a different type of interior fit out to boats made of other materials.

This is because the hull plating, frames, bulkheads and stringers need to be inspected and repainted on a regular basis.

On "Boracay" I have elected to bolt 35mm x 70mm and 45mm x 90mm timber to the frames etc. using 8mm galvanised bolts. Plywood panels and trim pieces are screwed to this using SS screws.

The advantage of this is that I can completely remove a section of cabinet work in a few hours, and replace in about the same amount of time.

This is a good point! I am looking at welding a lot of light frames in place because I have to fit out my interior as well. I plan to make all the finish work boled onto the frames and easily removed.

[ssullivan]

Originally Posted by Terra Nova

Yo Zach,

at first thought, perhaps this seems reasonable. But consider how much (heavy) material one would have to carry aboard his small yacht. Think about all the various tools also needed besides a welder (grinders, buffers, clamps, etc). Add to this the fact that metal-working is just about the dirtiest job one could imagine doing aboard. And where would you work? Right on your foredeck? How will others in the anchorage appreciate all the noise?

Practical it is not.

best, andy

Practical it is... especially when I already carry a grinder, buffer and clamps on my plastic boat. It's a ZERO gain in weight, since the genset is the welder.

[ssullivan]

And for the sake of the posting here as it applied to the 2 boats I'm looking at - the S/D ratio is 0!! ha ha ha

It's got 0 square feet of sail, and 50,000lbs displacement on the steel boat. I'm sure it'll hold its own.

[bobola]

I owned a 35' steel sailboat (used to be parked near Gordo and Maggie on Isle of Venice in Ft. Lauderdale some years ago) which had a teak caprail mounted on a raised steel bulwark. Bad idea!!!

In my opinion the only place for exterior wood on a steel boat is in the cockpit, if that.

The builder left no way to access the interior hull under the head and there was rust under it and no way to get at it without deconstruction the head. Bad idea!!!

Builder also neglected to make proper limber holes. Bad idea!!!

I would own a steel sailboat again but only if the builder understood good idea VS bad idea, and took the time to incorporate only good ideas.

And the absolute very worst idea is to mount a wood deck over steel. This is folly of the first order as there is no way to keep moisture from collecting between the two.

[Brent Swain]

Originally Posted by Alan Wheeler

Your putting the cart before the Horse Sean. First question is, what type of boat as in size, design and what was the design intended to be built from in the first place. Then and only then do you worry about the material and if different form the original designers recomendations, you need their help in redesigning for the new material.
As to materials, ALL materials have good and bad points. I don't believe there is one perfect material. Hence we come back to the designer. He/she designs with a goal in mind of intended use and performance and chooses a material based on what that criteria is.
It has been discussed here before but here are a few of my thoughts.
Steel= Strongest material normal people can afford. Only materials stronger are Carbon fibre and Kevlar. Fast material to build with. You can easily hide mistakes like badly cut panel for instance.
The negatatives are, very noisy. Sound travels through it and along it. Transmits water temperature very quickly. This can result in condensation. Can be well protected from rust, but requires very good and thorough protection to do so. Often this results in expense that means what you have saved on material, gets spent on preperation and coatings.
Heavey and lends itself to larger vessels. Hard to work with and requires a lot of specialised equipment to weld, cut and bend.

Glass= easy to work with as you just lay up what and where you want. If made in a female mold, then the finished product is it. Strong for it's weight.
Negatives are, it requires molds. It is messy. The product is expensive. Care is required as you often have one chance only.
Glass over timber/ply = probably the easiest method, but also the most time consuming. IMO, it creates some of the most responsive hulls around. There is a "life" about them that any other material seems to miss having. The most insulative material and should not cause condensation. But in saying that, any hull will have condensation issues if not well ventilated.
Negatives. Requires a lot of messy work with glueing and glassing. Requires a reasonable skill level with wood. Requires a reasonable amount of woodworking gear.

Personaly, if I were to build, it would be glass over ply or timber. Even though I love FC, it is a difficult material to work with today as there are few around that know what and how to go about it today. I would not attempt it now. But Timber is a lovely material to work with and has a lot going for it.
I would not worry about strength issues. No matter what material you have, in the worst circumstances, anything will fail. And in the worst circumstances, you aren't worried about the boat. You are worrying about you. In ordinary circumstances of things going wrong, most all materials should survive just fine.

A well insulated steel boat is very quiet and has far less condensation that a poorly insulated glass one . A friend crossing the Pacific in a well insulated steel boat found the boat blew horizontal in squalls without making enough noise to wake him up. He woke up when he was sleeping on the hull .
I've lived on steel boats for the last 31 years . My boat is very quiet and dry in BC winters.The current paint job is 23 years old and is as good as the day I put it on except where it has been chipped. I doubt if I will ever sandblast the works. Steel is very easy to work on and maintain with minimal tools or experience. An engine driven alternator for welding , a grinder and cutting torch can do all the metal work you'd ever need to do.
I'd never consider crossing another ocean in a non metal boat. Just too much stuff floating out there ,stuff which can easily sink any non metal boat , but are no worry in a steel boat.
Fibreglass over wood would be a poor choice. Never know what's going on under the glass until it''s too late. Putting it over wood is a very expensive way to end up with a very mediocre boat.
If you want a fibreglass boat the market is saturated with older boats for sale for a fraction the cost of materials. With todays costs no one could afford to build a fibreglass boat that strong anymore. Design wise they are better that todays boats too.
Brent