Raymarine Tech Support is Closed - Hydraulic AP Pump Bleeding?

[Chotu]

Now, back to the matter at hand.

I have performed a test. I cracked open the port line that connects to the autohelm pump.

I did this after turning really hard to port so there was some pressure in the line.

Wouldn’t you know it? There was a lot of pressure in the line it squirted out like a diesel injector or something. Squirted out hard when I cracked the line open.

I cracked the line on the right in the picture

So there is plenty of hydraulic fluid getting to the pump.

And at high pressure. But the pump isn’t doing anything with it.

What could cause that?

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by deblen

You have a common hydraulic steering system.Common meaning it is used by many brands.
I have attd an old Wagner instruction booklet which details bleeding the manual part of this type of system.It does not cover the teeing in of an autopilot pump.https://corbin39.org/wp-content/uplo...ion-Manual.pdf


You say that the manual helm steering is turning the rudders fine.
So-your problem must be the electric pumpset.
1.Are you keeping the helm full of oil at all times?The helm is the system reservoir.

2.Do not run the pumpset.Crack the center hose fitting at the pumpset.The oil should run freely from the helm reservoir.Top up the helm reservoir.
3.Disconnect the 2 pumpset motor wires at the A/P. Touch these 2 wires to the heavy + & - AP controller supply terminals-polarity doesn't matter.
The pumpset should run,rudders should move.Reverse the polarity of above wires-pump & rudders should run & move opposite dir.
If the above doesn't happen,the pump isn't pumping oil.
Does your pumpset have tiny shut off or flow control valves built in?


Answer these questions & then we can go further.

Doing these tests next.

[Chotu]

Well, I think I found the problem without doing the last test.

In the literature (there is a lot of it with systems this complex - one instruction sheet for each component, no central instructions for the system), the “R” line was called a return line. In other instance it was called a “reservoir” line. In yet other places in the helm manual, it was called a “compensating” line.

Apparently, i latched onto the return line nomenclature and plumbed it like a return line. To the top of the reservoir. It is more accurately called a compensating line.

Now i have this (pic attached) and need to add plumbing fittings to the BOTTOM of the helm pump to attach a COMPENSATING line, not a return line. What a mess it’s going to be.

I realized my error when I started the test to see if the fluid would run freely from the helm to the R port on the autohelm pump.

Of COURSE it can’t. Be a it’s a “return” line.

Well, no. It’s a “compensating” line and needs to be constantly supplying the autohelm pump with gravity fed steering fluid. It’s not a return line at all.

Ugh. An awful job ahead with steering fluid going everywhere as I open the bottom of the helm pump and put a fitting on.

Edit: However, actually, I have to edit this post. The funnel you see is much higher in the system than the auto pilot pump. So, despite my plumbing error, there should still be fluid heading down to the pump. Because the fill lines above the helm, where the funnel is, are completely full. I will continue with the tests.

[Chotu]

FAIL:

The compensating line is NOT free flowing from the helm fill lines (which have that entire funnel above them) to the helm pump.

Hard to see why when it’s lower.

I had a bear of a time with the compensating line actually.

The compression connectors weren’t working to attach it near the helm. So I had to super heat and met it a bit to get it to fit. It’s a hard plastic supplied be SeaStar with a weird thickness.

Maybe I cut off the flow melting it.

In any case. Same situation.

I have to pull off the line and get hydraulic fluid everywhere. Not looking forward to that.

[rslifkin]

At least you found something wrong, so now you know what problem you're chasing!

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

At least you found something wrong, so now you know what problem you're chasing!

Very true. Also, it looks like I’ll be able to do it like changing the oil in a car. They have a drain plug at the very bottom of the helm.

So if I can get a funnel in there and a jug, I can catch it.

Then after it’s empty, I can thread in something there and attach the compensating line there.

Then I just have to reconnect and simplify the full lines at the top of the pump which will also be empty of oil at that time.

And I think, just maybe, I don’t have to bleed the system after this. Because this is the highest point in the system. When I drain the helm, it will be empty and full of air, but the lines will not. They will stay full. they are lower. Then I can just refill the helm all the way up and I shouldn’t have any air in the system at that point. It should bubble out the top.


Could have been much worse. Could have been a problem at the lower end of things. Where you have to drain the entire system and re bleed.

Also I could’ve had leaks. But I’m kind of cocky about that. I can do copper flares without leaks. First time every time. Ha ha I love that stuff. That’s why I use it for everything. It’s mandatory for the steering system, but I use it for propane also. Love it.

[Chotu]

Still doesn’t work. Unbelievable. Everything is plumbed perfectly now.

I have to perform the test to takeoff the compensating line at the pump itself. Make sure it drains fluid out there.

Raymarine tech-support still on vacation.

Very very frustrating that everything works except the pump. The entire brand new system and all of the electronics are functioning great. But I need an auto helm.

[Baby tug]

My guess is the oil is free flowing out of your auto pilot pump back to your helm pump reservoir tank

[deblen]

You are getting close.
The R port on the bottom of the helm goes to the R port on AP pumpset. Originally,the R stood for Reservoir.
This allows oil to gravity feed to the pumpset,keeping it full.

Here is another diagram of a typical system.


You mentioned & showed a pic of a twin cylinder adjusting valve(automatic tie rod). Could you post a diagram of your current complete plumbing


https://forum.raymarine.com/showthread.php?tid=2946

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Baby tug

My guess is the oil is free flowing out of your auto pilot pump back to your helm pump reservoir tank

It’s most definitely going back to the helm pump.

That’s what it’s supposed to do.

In fact, that’s how you bleed the autohelm pump.

You turn the wheel in the opposite direction that the auto helm pump is running in order to release the check valve on that side and create a loop.

Then you do the same thing in the opposite direction for both of them. Creating another loop in the other direction.

Then little air bubbles come out the top of the helm.

Then you are supposed to be good to go.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by deblen

You are getting close.
The R port on the bottom of the helm goes to the R port on AP pumpset. Originally,the R stood for Reservoir.
This allows oil to gravity feed to the pumpset,keeping it full.

Here is another diagram of a typical system.


You mentioned & showed a pic of a twin cylinder adjusting valve(automatic tie rod). Could you post a diagram of your current complete plumbing


https://forum.raymarine.com/showthread.php?tid=2946

Here is the diagram.

The gravity fill attached to the top of the helm pump is not pictured.





I have removed A and B at the auto pilot pump and it was like a diesel injector. Sprayed out hard because I pushed hard to port and starboard.

The one good thing?

No leaks! Not a single drip or weep. I LOVE copper flare fitting projects. My propane is all copper too. Soooo easy.


I still have to pull R again at the pump with the revised downhill compensating line that now feeds from the bottom of the helm pump/reservoir. I have to confirm the gravity drip.

I created a couple trucks worth of construction refuse blocking the access to the pump, which is in the aft structural crossbeam.

[Baby tug]

Whatever method you use if it works great , personally I’ve always had bleeder valves on the cylinder and bleed it pretty much like you would the brakes on a car, however that’s not what I see going on here , I think maybe one of your check valves is stuck open and oil is going to flow the path of the least resistance , Maybe your helm pump does not have check valves you don’t really need them with a single station hydraulic helm , I think you said your hydraulic home works fine so what else could it be

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Baby tug

Whatever method you use if it works great , personally I’ve always had bleeder valves on the cylinder and bleed it pretty much like you would the brakes on a car, however that’s not what I see going on here , I think maybe one of your check valves is stuck open and oil is going to flow the path of the least resistance , Maybe your helm pump does not have check valves you don’t really need them with a single station hydraulic helm , I think you said your hydraulic home works fine so what else could it be

That’s exactly how you bleed the manual part of the system. Down at the rams.

To bleed the pump, it’s through the helm. Creating that loop I mentioned.

None of this is my technique. It’s what the instructions say to do.

What you may have missed is the manual part of the steering is working perfectly. Even the liquid tie bar. All great.

The only thing not working is the autohelm pump.

If a helm doesn’t have working check valves and the work from the autohelm pump is going through the manual wheel pump, it spins the wheel.

That’s not happening. Nothing is happening when the autohelm pump tries to do something. You can hear it make a long hit and then like 5 small hits. Nothing moves. No wheel, no rams.

[Baby tug]

Oil from the auto pilot pump has to be going somewhere , so it’s either going to a dead end Which you would probably hear because it would put quite a load on the pump , or it’s going back through the other pump into the Reservoir , it has to go somewhere , since your manual pump is working correctly and the auto pump is just teed into your manual pump lines Pretty much has to be free flowing back through the pump to the Reservoir

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Baby tug

Oil from the auto pilot pump has to be going somewhere , so it’s either going to a dead end Which you would probably hear because it would put quite a load on the pump , or it’s going back through the other pump into the Reservoir , it has to go somewhere , since your manual pump is working correctly and the auto pump is just teed into your manual pump lines Pretty much has to be free flowing back through the pump to the Reservoir

There is no reservoir. That drawing above is everything. There’s no component that’s not in the drawing.

So it can’t go to a Reservoir.

I feel like the pump isn’t working or my compensating line is still not delivering to the autohelm pump.

More likely to be the latter I think.

The helm pump isn’t very much higher than the auto helm pump.