Raymarine Tech Support is Closed - Hydraulic AP Pump Bleeding?

[Chotu]

Check page 22 of my manual:

http://www.seastarsolutions.com/wp-c....L-165025L.pdf


See in the troubleshooting section where it says dirt in the check valves as a possible problem for the helm?

Hopefully that will convince you. They are built into the helm. And so is the “reservoir”.

Also, here are the check valves in my helm. You can order new ones from west marine:

https://www.westmarine.com/seastar-s...hoCESsQAvD_BwE

[rslifkin]

Try cracking an output line at the pump while running it. If that squirts fluid, then the autopilot pump is at least trying to move fluid.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

Try cracking an output line at the pump while running it. If that squirts fluid, then the autopilot pump is at least trying to move fluid.

A reasonable idea to try to bring some sanity to the situation.

For the same reason I can’t check the R line again at the helm pump, I can’t check the A or B lines.

Huge pile of garbage. Lol.

I’ll check this as soon as my helper is back to move the garbage to the dumpster and report back.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by Chotu

A reasonable idea to try to bring some sanity to the situation.

For the same reason I can’t check the R line again at the helm pump, I can’t check the A or B lines.

Huge pile of garbage. Lol.

I’ll check this as soon as my helper is back to move the garbage to the dumpster and report back.

I'd check it at the AP pump first, not the helm pump

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

I'd check it at the AP pump first, not the helm pump

Sorry. Just wrapping up another back to back 12 hour day in 90° heat and nearly 100% humidity. Brain is not working. I said the wrong pump. I meant to say the auto helm pump.

[Chotu]

Here’s a silly little question.

I have to wait until Monday for my helper to come to move the refuse to the dumpster and it’s only getting to be a bigger and bigger pile. That’s blocking the pump now.

But this problem is still fresh on my mind.

Could a voltage drop to the control computer cause this type of problem?

I had previously sized my little trunk of power to the Helm station area for LED navlights, and a simple wheel pilot. There was really nothing else up there and I didn’t plan on anything else.

Now, I have a 15amp autopilot control unit, plus all the other stuff from before.

The little run to the helm is undersized for current demand now.

Is there something like a solid state relay inside auto pilot control?

It might be getting a big voltage drop when the pump turns on if so.

The length of the run to the pump from the course computer is long enough that I had to use 6 AWG.

However, almost the exact same run from the electrical panel to the helm area and course computer is on some puny little 10 AWG or something like that. I would have to double check but it’s not big.

[Seafarer7]

Chotu,

From what little I can glean from your install photo it seems to me your reservoir line into your autopilot pump (the 3rd connection) may have some downhill run sections, which may cause the pump to starve whenever it’s engaged. If so, make sure that this 3rd line has a constant uphill slope all the way from your autopilot pump to the bottom of your helm pump, so that gravity ensures there is no chance for air in this line.

Also try turning your helm *both* ways while your autopilot pump is running, to ensure at least one of those scenarios forces fluid into your autopilot pump (since prior to commissioning you can’t reliably tell port or starboard engagement for an autopilot hydraulic pump).


Finally confirming this is what you have:

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Seafarer7

Chotu,

From what little I can glean from your install photo it seems to me your reservoir line into your autopilot pump (the 3rd connection) may have some downhill run sections, which may cause the pump to starve whenever it’s engaged. If so, make sure that this 3rd line has a constant uphill slope all the way from your autopilot pump to the bottom of your helm pump, so that gravity ensures there is no chance for air in this line.

Also try turning your helm *both* ways while your autopilot pump is running, to ensure at least one of those scenarios forces fluid into your autopilot pump (since prior to commissioning you can’t reliably tell port or starboard engagement for an autopilot hydraulic pump).


Finally confirming this is what you have:
Attachment 267982

I kind of have some thing like that picture. But more like what I drew. It doesn’t conform exactly to that picture but it is close. That picture has a different type of final input to the Outboards in that case.

So that weird twist at the helm is not necessary on mine. Thank God.


So, yes. It does have an uphill to get into the auto pilot pump itself.

It is not possible to install it without a small uphill and also have it close to the rams and in the center of the system.

I have definitely tried every combination of everything to get that thing to prime. But nothing. All combinations of the helm end of the unit itself.

[Chotu]

Collapsing of exhaustion right now in the heat. So I forgot some thing. Falling asleep.

The diagram didn’t show the autohelm pump. I put it in there as a blue dot. But it is much much closer to the Rams. Like it’s supposed to be. It’s in the aft structural beam.

[Seafarer7]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Here’s a silly little question.

I have to wait until Monday for my helper to come to move the refuse to the dumpster and it’s only getting to be a bigger and bigger pile. That’s blocking the pump now.

But this problem is still fresh on my mind.

Could a voltage drop to the control computer cause this type of problem?

I had previously sized my little trunk of power to the Helm station area for LED navlights, and a simple wheel pilot. There was really nothing else up there and I didn’t plan on anything else.

Now, I have a 15amp autopilot control unit, plus all the other stuff from before.

The little run to the helm is undersized for current demand now.

Is there something like a solid state relay inside auto pilot control?

It might be getting a big voltage drop when the pump turns on if so.

The length of the run to the pump from the course computer is long enough that I had to use 6 AWG.

However, almost the exact same run from the electrical panel to the helm area and course computer is on some puny little 10 AWG or something like that. I would have to double check but it’s not big.

I would heft a well charged 12v battery to right beside the pump and directly connect it to test or eliminate this possibility.

One suggestion(a messy one howbeit): since the rest of your system is working perfectly I would suggest isolating and testing your autopilot pump as follows:

- disconnect your autopilot pump from your system (at least both hydraulic lines and 12v dc).
- connect both hydraulic inputs of that pump into a container full of hydraulic fluid using short sections of piping (preferably connect lines to bottom of container, and raise the container above the pump)
- apply +ve 12v DC to pump, and then -ve 12v (reverse).

If the pump and it’s valves are ok, you should observe mini-fountains inside and on both sides of the container.

[Seafarer7]

Originally Posted by Chotu

So, yes. It does have an uphill to get into the auto pilot pump itself.

It is not possible to install it without a small uphill and also have it close to the rams and in the center of the system.

One thought:
One way to avoid that uphill run is to install a small ledge (instead of the pump) on that bulkhead and then install the pump horizontally on the ledge. Looks like you have the room for it from your photo. Using a couple angle brackets and some wood would give you a horizontal mounting surface for the pump, and place your return line such that it can continuously ascend.

EDIT TO SUGGEST AN EVEN EASIER METHOD:
Forget what I wrote above. Simply use the second R port for your pump (above the pump) and plug the current R port you are using. Your second R port is already perfectly positioned for an ascending hydraulic line and it should be very simple to swap.

[Seafarer7]

The more I look at your install photo the more convinced I am that simply swapping your reservoir line connection would solve the issue.

Here’s the diagram for that pump. I would suggest connecting to the “optional” R port, plugging up the one you have in use now, and ensuring the entire R line is uphill back to the helm, before trying anything more messy.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Seafarer7

The more I look at your install photo the more convinced I am that simply swapping your reservoir line connection would solve the issue.

Here’s the diagram for that pump. I would suggest connecting to the “optional” R port, plugging up the one you have in use now, and ensuring the entire R line is uphill back to the helm, before trying anything more messy.

Attachment 267988

OK. Sounds good. That hydraulic fluid is not very good for you in general. And I have lots of problems with chemicals I’m trying not to over expose myself to it.

It’s already been getting everywhere.

I’ll give that a try. And lower the pump some more toward the deck. That will help it be uphill. It can never truly be all the way uphill, because there are bulkheads inside the beam it’s in. But the lower I get it, the better it probably is. Right?

Funny part is, that’s a valid installation position as suggested by the instructions.

But first I will crack it open and see if it leaks fluid. Then I’ll switch to the other port. As you suggested.

Just waiting for my helper to get back so that he he can haul the junk away from the opening where the pump is, I can clean the area and try this.

[Baby tug]

This is the simplest thing ever , I don’t care what you say if your helm pump is working as you said, and all you have done is teed your auto pilot pump into your helm pump lines , and it is pumping oil it would work , Unless something is up with your Check valves , It could hardly be anything else , You could troubleshoot this in 10 minutes with a couple of wrenches and a rag guaranteed

[cabosn]

Chotu, oh how I feel your pain. I had an unexplainable problem after installing the same autopilot on a Boston whaler. Not the same symptoms but similar in that there was no good explanation. Briefly, the autopilot worked but I had 180 degrees of play manually turning to port and none turning to starboard. If I turned quickly, almost no play. “Bleed it” everyone says. I bled it dozens of times over 2 years before I finally figured out it was a brand new bad autopilot pump.

Here’s how the problem starts. I think I know how the hydraulic circuit works but I don’t. Like you guys, I wave my hands and say some magic check valves open and close to allow fluid to return to the reservoir. Draw me a diagram that shows how to make that work. Good luck. Over two years I unsuccessfully looked for some tutorial that would explain it and in the end I just had to make some guesses based on a couple of clues about something I think was called a slacker valve. I may still not have it 100% correct but at least I can draw a circuit that makes sense and explains everything.
As the diagram shows, fluid is returned through valves that are actuated by pressure from the steering pump. If they aren’t operating correctly, strange things can happen. Let’s think about your case. If manually turning to port, the starboard slacker valve in the helm pump should be open. At the same time, if autopilot pump is turning to starboard, it’s port slacker valve should be open. Fluid should be returning to reservoir on both sides with no movement of ram. This also explains why the pump rate of both pumps don’t have to be exactly equal to cancel any ram motion. What happens if the slacker valve doesn’t open in the autopilot? Well, exactly what you say is happening. Port ram is actuated because port slacker valve is closed. All fluid is pumped through the starboard valve. What if you stop turning the wheel closing the starboard slacker? If there is no return path, a relief valve inside the autopilot pump will open and dump fluid back to reservoir.
Now I’m not saying for sure this is what’s happening. I’m just saying there is more going on than you think and strange things can happen. I hate myself a little for this but what I did was buy a new pump, install it, observe problem fixed then return bad pump for refund. Not quite kosher but they did sell me a bad pump. In case you’re interested, I think my problem was a leaky check valve in the autopilot pump. When manually turning to starboard, fluid leaked back to open the port slacker valve in the autopilot. It remained open temporarily when I turned to port causing play. That’s my guess anyway.