Refit for accessibility needs

[adamgoldberg]

My wife and I are planning to buy a multihull to liveaboard and travel. Unfortunately, she had a stroke a few years ago and has limited mobility - mostly she's very slow walking.

To make a boat work well for us, we're thinking we need a main deck head -- if she needs to make a dash to the head, it needs to be nearby. Some of the boats we've looked at have a setup that would seem to work (notably the Neel trimarans, especially the 43 and 51).

Also, we'd need to add some number of additional handrails throughout (she doesn't have use of her left arm).

However, we'd maybe rather not invest in a brand new boat. It strikes us that it would possibly be better to acquire a multihull that works for us in other respects, and then refit the main level (without necessarily refitting the whole main level) to accommodate a head.

(We'd limit our options to boats that otherwise meet our needs and are not in need of extravagant refit.)

Any thoughts??

[Fore and Aft]

AdamGoldberg there is an older Australian production cat that has the toilet on the bridge deck. Plenty of custom cats I have surveyed have the toilet and shower on the bridge deck. There's no reason why you can't.
Cheers

[JPA Cate]

On the other hand, unless your good lady wife is really keen on this, taking someone to sea who is frail and may fall from jerky motion, is simply asking for injury. She may be okay with it, and then it IS her choice; but it is more dangerous for her than for a person with balance issues that does not have partial paralysis on one whole side.

Monohulls are pretty easy to get around, particularly old fashioned ones with many handholds/overhead rails help, too, to hang from, if she is strong enough on her right side.

It also depends on your cruising grounds, now and future-planned.

Ann

[PineyWoodsPete]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

On the other hand, unless your good lady wife is really keen on this, taking someone to sea who is frail and may fall from jerky motion, is simply asking for injury. She may be okay with it, and then it IS her choice; but it is more dangerous for her than for a person with balance issues that does not have partial paralysis on one whole side.

Monohulls are pretty easy to get around, particularly old fashioned ones with many handholds/overhead rails help, too, to hang from, if she is strong enough on her right side.

It also depends on your cruising grounds, now and future-planned.

Ann

Ann

Absolutely spot-on, Ann, The OP apparently has a 48' cat under custom design now, his latest post about single-handed winch placement not mentioning her severe disability, that he stated in a prior thread:

"My wife had a stroke a few years ago, and has no use of her left arm, and only sorta use of her left leg - she walks slowly with a cane. We're looking for a boat to modify (slightly) to work for her."

In addition to 60 years on boats of all sorts, I'm a long-retired Internist and Gerontologist with 30 years of medical practice and have seen many similar patients. Their greatest fear is always that of falling, and the too-often consequence of hip fracture, or of the good arm/shoulder deployed to break the fall - both marking the onset of total disability for at least the period of healing, and the inevitable worsening of general debility that follows.

Unless this is his wife's dream and overpowering desire, and she's willing to take the much higher risk of falling on a boat that's always in some motion anchored, docked or underway, getting on and off, my opinion is that it would present a clear danger to her health and a fearfull state of mind.

And hubby, a "somewhat newbie sailor" single-handing their large cat to boot is not reassuring...

[adamgoldberg]

Sure, sure, dig up an old thread and connect the dots.

Originally Posted by PineyWoodsPete

In addition to 60 years on boats of all sorts, I'm a long-retired Internist and Gerontologist with 30 years of medical practice and have seen many similar patients. Their greatest fear is always that of falling, and the too-often consequence of hip fracture, or of the good arm/shoulder deployed to break the fall - both marking the onset of total disability for at least the period of healing, and the inevitable worsening of general debility that follows.

60 years on boats, 30 years as a doctor, and 0 years knowing anything about our situation.

Originally Posted by PineyWoodsPete

Unless this is his wife's dream and overpowering desire, and she's willing to take the much higher risk of falling on a boat that's always in some motion anchored, docked or underway, getting on and off, my opinion is that it would present a clear danger to her health and a fearfull state of mind.

And hubby, a "somewhat newbie sailor" single-handing their large cat to boot is not reassuring...

Well, I sure am glad you guys are interested in telling me what can't be done.

I sure am glad I found a supportive, helpful community.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by adamgoldberg

Sure, sure, dig up an old thread and connect the dots.


60 years on boats, 30 years as a doctor, and 0 years knowing anything about our situation.

Well, I sure am glad you guys are interested in telling me what can't be done.

I sure am glad I found a supportive, helpful community.

Lolol. this is always my chief complaint as well here. It's chock full of that old "can't do attitude".

you’ll have to just sift through all of that. There are good people on here that will give you sound advice.

Building a head on the bridge deck is a fantastic idea I've always longed to do. Imagine it. You can forget about all of the complicated head plumbing that people have to deal with. Think more like an RV or even better, an outhouse. All gravity. if there was any way to get this to work with my boat I would have done it just for the simplicity.

in my case, however, you need 360° visibility in the salon. The helm is inside. That means a salon/bridge deck level helm would have been a very public experience. Lol

Due to your multiple threads, I am unclear if you are building the 48 foot catamaran or buying one? I have read two different things.

[adamgoldberg]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Building a head on the bridge deck is a fantastic idea I've always longed to do. Imagine it. You can forget about all of the complicated head plumbing that people have to deal with. Think more like an RV or even better, an outhouse. All gravity. if there was any way to get this to work with my boat I would have done it just for the simplicity.

in my case, however, you need 360° visibility in the salon. The helm is inside. That means a salon/bridge deck level helm would have been a very public experience. Lol

Due to your multiple threads, I am unclear if you are building the 48 foot catamaran or buying one? I have read two different things.

Place head underneath settee seat. Remove cushion, cover, presto! head. When privacy desired, close track-on-ceiling-mounted curtain around this portion of the settee. Would include normal head plumbing, wash your hands in the sink nearby.

It shouldn't be a surprise that between August and November our thinking has changed . We had many options, but have closed in on a build that can accommodate our needs.

[JPA Cate]

There's no need to be snarky. In fact, the Doctor makes good points. And you have not made your experience level clear, about an undertaking that in most circumstances it is very difficult to to make safe for one who has no use of her left arm at all. She can't extend it to break a fall, and she can't move quickly. Does she mostly live in a wheelchair?

You may hope a 48 foot cat and your great care will be able to surmount this problem for her.

You may plan on crew to help manage the boat. But we cannot guess what you do not inform us of.

How many ocean hours do you have? Would it be more practical for her to fly to meet you at your imagined destinations? Are you willing to sail only on perfect days with good forecasting? [Not everywhere in the world does, although it is way better than it was 30 yrs. ago.] Would you hire staff to keep her safe? What would happen in an emergency?

There are two things I've noticed over my time here on CF that concern me for your plans. The first is that you're speaking for your wife, and so we don't know whether or not this plan is her heart's desire; and the other is your lack of experience. My observation over 40 yrs of sailing is that people who come late in life to sailing are at a disadvantage for learning it well. It's not just driving the boat, which they may do very well, but when someone doesn't know what he or she doesn't know, bad decisions can happen. Witness the 4 deaths on Portugal in this week's CF. The other big problem is that people assume everywhere is the same as their country of origin: "I'll just pay to have the boat worked on." If you're traveling, you may have to catch seasons, but if the boat needs work to be seaworthy again, you have to wait. One couple gave up in Panama (the nation) on account of that. Different work ethic, different relationship to time.

Fwiw, there are Sailing Disability groups here, and perhaps you have access to them as well? The boats are small monohulls with lots of flotation.

I don't know if you followed the thread of the 60' cat that broke up in the Gulf Stream, last week, but it had very wide hulls at the stern. You could hire an engineering firm to engineer a safe, strong, folding wheel chair ramp to something like that, but the widths of the steps were one thing that led to the boat not really being seaworthy. I think most things are possible, given adequate funding, even one of those chair seats to get down into the hull to use the toilet or shower. But, if your good lady cannot walk safely unassisted on land, that difficulty will also be there on a boat, and I'm not sure any boat can be adequately designed for her. So beware, because you would not want to lead her into harm--imagine the guilt-- and even reputable naval architects could see you as a new Maserati, for them...

So perhaps you could share how you think this could work out well. Please be clear about your wife's physical limitations, and her strengths.

Ann

[adamgoldberg]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

There's no need to be snarky. In fact, the Doctor makes good points. And you have not made your experience level clear, about

Sorry, Ann, I actually did feel a need to be snarky.

In this thread I asked a specific question (refitting a head). In the other thread, I asked a specific question (2 or 3 winches at helm).

In neither case did I set out to (nor even attempt to) detail all that has gone into our training, our plans, our prospective boat, etc. That didn't stop folks from weighing in after projecting their assumptions on those things upon my unremarkable questions.

The boats are small monohulls with lots of flotation.

the other is your lack of experience.

abandoning in panama

non-seaworthy 60' breaking up in GS

How about let's just assume in this thread that the only issue is refitting a head in the salon of a 45-50' catamaran. And assume in the other thread that the only issue is whether it'd be more convenient to have 3 winches at the helm, or if 2 would be perfectly fine under nearly all conditions.

[PineyWoodsPete]

Originally Posted by adamgoldberg

Sure, sure, dig up an old thread and connect the dots.


60 years on boats, 30 years as a doctor, and 0 years knowing anything about our situation.

Well, I sure am glad you guys are interested in telling me what can't be done.

I sure am glad I found a supportive, helpful community.

Who said that it "can't be done"? The whole problem is that it CAN be done, but with significantly elevated risks to your wife's health than with her life and support systems on terra firma, particularly with a singlehanding relative newbie skipper who will find his hands overflowing when things go south as they sooner or later will.

[adamgoldberg]

Originally Posted by PineyWoodsPete

Who said that it "can't be done"? The whole problem is that it CAN be done, but with significantly elevated risks to your wife's health than with her life and support systems on terra firma, particularly with a singlehanding relative newbie skipper who will find his hands overflowing when things go south as they sooner or later will.

I read the following as a warning not to do any such thing (n.b. "present a clear danger to her health"), is there another way to read it?

In addition to 60 years on boats of all sorts, I'm a long-retired Internist and Gerontologist with 30 years of medical practice and have seen many similar patients. Their greatest fear is always that of falling, and the too-often consequence of hip fracture, or of the good arm/shoulder deployed to break the fall - both marking the onset of total disability for at least the period of healing, and the inevitable worsening of general debility that follows.

Unless this is his wife's dream and overpowering desire, and she's willing to take the much higher risk of falling on a boat that's always in some motion anchored, docked or underway, getting on and off, my opinion is that it would present a clear danger to her health and a fearfull state of mind.

And hubby, a "somewhat newbie sailor" single-handing their large cat to boot is not reassuring...

[PineyWoodsPete]

Originally Posted by adamgoldberg

I read the following as a warning not to do any such thing (n.b. "present a clear danger to her health"), is there another way to read it?

Of course you CAN choose to do it, but in my more medically informed opinion about your wife's complete paralysis of her left arm and partial paralysis of the left leg making her dependant on a cane to walk, and much more susceptible to falling on an always moving boat, you SHOULDN'T IMO.

[adamgoldberg]

Like I said, sure am glad I found a supportive and helpful community here.

[Iron E]

Originally Posted by Chotu

It's chock full of that old "can't do attitude".

Damn... that's brilliant.


And to OP... you guys do you. From our own experiences with friends who have disabilities, the 3 things that we find challenging are
• Boarding/disembarking
• Down/Up the companionway
• Use of the head (if you're topside)

[JPA Cate]

Well, the problem here is that the OP thinks he can control how people answer him, and many of us don't think it is responsible to ignore the elephant in the room. It is the nature of internet communications that collateral issues are mentioned.

I am glad that Fore&Aft had a positive suggestion.

I have asked for clarification of the wife's condition. So far not forthcoming.

So yes, the OP and his good lady wife do them, and there may be safe ways to do them, also. PineyWoodsPete says this is way too dangerous, and it might be, but I am not convinced. It could be; it might not. He is basing his opinion on his medical background and his years in seaways, and I know there are always people way out on the tails of averages whose experiences do not fall in the middle of the mean.

I'd say lack of experience as a sailor is a very severe handicap, too, and can lead to death as we've seen this week, and experience can lead to life being saved (last week). But it is their lives and quality of life that is at stake here, and they get to choose.



Ann