Removing winch from mast

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

Sorry boss...but M42 is still high speed steel, even though it's called colbalt. I'm a Toolmaker of 40+ years. I know what I am talking about. As you and a lot of others pointed out, it is technique. Trust me on this one...put all the B.S. drills and what not away and please just try heat first. I use an oxy/acetylene torch with the smallest braising tip concentrated on the center of the fastener for 10 seconds or so at a time. If it makes you feel better, you can tap on it while it is cooling, then reheat a few times. More times than not, it will unscrew like a normal fastener. Oxidization breaks down over 400 degrees F.

I laugh at some of my customers that repeatedly bring me aluminum heads with seized in studs. The 3/8" studs are rounded down to about an 1/8" after they brutalize it with vice-grips or worst sheered off. At that point I have to indicate (dial indicator) whats left while viewing it under 10 power loupe. Then I have to drill out the center of the bolt to the thread drill size and peel the threads out with mini-needle-nose. I usually costs them $200 since it is all about the set-up. I always tell them to use heat first...but Oh no...they like beating on it.

Clearly you are the toolmaker boss! Maybe you can explain why, for stainless steel drilling, drill bits that are marked as HSS are outperformed by those marked M42 then? I believe that those with HSS marking are a M2 high speed steel, that have only half the Molybdenum and no Cobalt at all.

Also, most of us are sailors who don’t carry cylinders of oxygen and acetylene aboard and have to do with hammer operated impact drivers and drill bits. I think it’s a shame you laugh at your customers because they are the hand feeding you and as such deserving of respect

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Clearly you are the toolmaker boss! Maybe you can explain why, for stainless steel drilling, drill bits that are marked as HSS are outperformed by those marked M42 then? I believe that those with HSS marking are a M2 high speed steel, that have only half the Molybdenum and no Cobalt at all.

Also, most of us are sailors who don’t carry cylinders of oxygen and acetylene aboard and have to do with hammer operated impact drivers and drill bits. I think it’s a shame you laugh at your customers because they are the hand feeding you and as such deserving of respect

I knew if anyone had their ego hurt, it would be you. I laugh with my customers, not behind their back. Interesting that your mind goes to that default.
Here is the first thing I pulled off the Internet regarding M42...
"M42 is a molybdenum series high-speed steel alloy with an additional 8 or 10 percent cobalt."
And...I don't need to explain anything to you, I use non colbalt HSS all the time with stainless and like I said earlier, technique is more of a factor than the type of drill.

I gave 3 options of heat...remember? Propane, Map gas and then oxy/acetylene. But of course you have to pick the later to make some smug point. Ever think the repair is dock side?

Here is a Map gas kit for around $55.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Bernzoma...6638/205683985
Most sailors I know at least have a propane torch onboard.

Most "sailors" I know at least have a propane set up like this. Like I said, the Aluminum Oxide that is binding the threads can be broken down at around 400 degrees F. Maybe if you tried it you could pull yourself out of the Neanderthal beat everything to death with a hammer first.

You must hire a lot of your work out.


Opps...almost forgot...

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

I knew if anyone had their ego hurt, it would be you. I laugh with my customers, not behind their back. Interesting that your mind goes to that default.
Here is the first thing I pulled off the Internet regarding M42...
"M42 is a molybdenum series high-speed steel alloy with an additional 8 or 10 percent cobalt."
And...I don't need to explain anything to you, I use non colbalt HSS all the time with stainless and like I said earlier, technique is more of a factor than the type of drill.

I gave 3 options of heat...remember? Propane, Map gas and then oxy/acetylene. But of course you have to pick the later to make some smug point. Ever think the repair is dock side?

Here is a Map gas kit for around $55.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Bernzoma...6638/205683985
Most sailors I know at least have a propane torch onboard.

Most "sailors" I know at least have a propane set up like this. Like I said, the Aluminum Oxide that is binding the threads can be broken down at around 400 degrees F. Maybe if you tried it you could pull yourself out of the Neanderthal beat everything to death with a hammer first.

You must hire a lot of your work out.

Opps...almost forgot...

So you never used M42 bits but you know they don’t perform better than regular grade hss! That all these grades of bits fall within the high speed steel denomination is clear. You must have missed that I used the term “grade” and that it is clear that regular HSS bits are -not- M42 but rather M2, if at all. I can’t believe you tried to make that point of it all being high speed after acting like there is no difference in how they perform. Read back your posts.

You wrote you are a toolmaker of 40 years and I cleared the stage for you to share your knowledge, which is the purpose for this forum besides entertainment. You refuse which is crazy. You know I always try to help people as best as I can, wth is your beef with me?

You started by calling me boss, in an aggressive, denigrating way. Why? Then when I return the ball you flip out. Didn’t anyone tell you not to call others what you don’t want them to call you? It’s a simple concept, just like being nice to people. You should try that, it’s also a rule on this forum.

You wrote you laugh -at- your customers, not “with them” as you write now. You can’t make that go away by now changing your tune? Because I called that as lack of respect for your customers? Do you realize that if they would be good at that work themselves, that they would not need your services and you would be without income?!

I have never required your services, not from you nor anyone else. For you to insinuate that I don’t do any work myself while I do all the work myself is the stupidest statement of all. You never even met me, you simply don’t know and yet you are here attacking people who try to be helpful without any further thought into the subject. Why are you spitting poison? Please come around and stop attacks, to much of that in the world already.

[s/v Jedi]

On the subject of using heat on the mast winch: don’t, it will ruin the finish of the mast. Just drill it out, try left hand drill bits or even extractors. After drilling out most of the fastener, it becomes much easier to get it out.

If you don’t care about the finish, you can also weld a nut on the head of the fastener. This puts the heat in it as well as provide a good gripping surface for hitting it with a hammer when hot as well as a big wrench.

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

So you never used M42 bits but you know they don’t perform better than regular grade hss! That all these grades of bits fall within the high speed steel denomination is clear. You must have missed that I used the term “grade” and that it is clear that regular HSS bits are -not- M42 but rather M2, if at all. I can’t believe you tried to make that point of it all being high speed after acting like there is no difference in how they perform. Read back your posts.

You wrote you are a toolmaker of 40 years and I cleared the stage for you to share your knowledge, which is the purpose for this forum besides entertainment. You refuse which is crazy. You know I always try to help people as best as I can, wth is your beef with me?

You started by calling me boss, in an aggressive, denigrating way. Why? Then when I return the ball you flip out. Didn’t anyone tell you not to call others what you don’t want them to call you? It’s a simple concept, just like being nice to people. You should try that, it’s also a rule on this forum.

You wrote you laugh -at- your customers, not “with them” as you write now. You can’t make that go away by now changing your tune? Because I called that as lack of respect for your customers? Do you realize that if they would be good at that work themselves, that they would not need your services and you would be without income?!

I have never required your services, not from you nor anyone else. For you to insinuate that I don’t do any work myself while I do all the work myself is the stupidest statement of all. You never even met me, you simply don’t know and yet you are here attacking people who try to be helpful without any further thought into the subject. Why are you spitting poison? Please come around and stop attacks, to much of that in the world already.

My wife and I had a good laugh with your continued responses and feel you should change your handle to Darth Vadar. So yes, this time we are laughing behind your back...sorry, there was no choice.

I'm merely saying there is no need for a single use for one bludgeoned head of a fastener, after you have smashed it with your hammers and impact driver using a HSS cobalt drill. A "regular": HSS works just fine.
I don't have a beef with you...that's your trip. Over the years I have seen you do it many times, to others, when you don't get your way. Listening to your verbal tantrums isn't my thing...sorry.
So I know you'll never stop and have the last word and please, have at it. So I'll say this Mr. Jedi...You are absolutely right. You are correct about everything. I know nothing and stand in the wake of your greatness. I was totally silly in thinking I knew anything about drill bits or how to get seized stainless fasteners out from oxidized aluminum.

[donradcliffe]

The only time I tried heat, the SS bolt easily just twisted off. Should I have let everything cool down?? I like the battery idea better than a gas torch, and I may try that next time.

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

The only time I tried heat, the SS bolt easily just twisted off. Should I have let everything cool down?? I like the battery idea better than a gas torch, and I may try that next time.

Hi Don...Yes, when hot that can happen. You can hit it with a little water to move it along quicker. Stainless is not as hard as a high carbon steel (1215, which is often used in steel fasteners).
Stainless is 30,000psi
1215 steel is 60,000psi
Chances are...if the head twists off easily, it is possible it had crevice corrosion. So then you can go the drill root. And remember it HAS to be Cobalt. kidding!

I had the misfortune of having to remove series of 10.24 and 1/4.20 fasteners on the mast of my Tartan Blackwatch 37. This of course was done in a yard (disclaimer for Jedi) and I used a torch set and with the small braising tip was able to concentrate the flame to the center of the fastener...and no, it did not affect the mast finish. The 10.24s were mostly slot heads with a few phillips. I would rock the driver back and forth (my drivers were square shanked and used a wrench on it). Some came out immediately and some after a few repeated applications.