Replacement Rudder Cable Advice

[BenBowSirocco]

Originally Posted by wholybee

It might be worth mentioning in this case that if you call Edson (the expert recommended previously) very well might be the OE supplier for the yacht, and when you call them you often speak with the owner directly. They have on file steering system drawings for hundreds of yachts, certainly all of those that used Edson steering. They have outstanding support and really are the expert in steering systems. They really are not a company to accuse of not having expertise.

You can follow the links in other posts to see what the conduit looks like. It's a common steering system produced by Edson for several decades. It sounds like maybe the yacht builder used it, but incorporated tighter bends than recommended. Or, maybe after experience Edson changed the recommendations over the years.

Thats great to hear! Thank you for letting everyone know. Certainly not the same experience everywhere.



Those conduits linked above say "Conduit should be utilized only to make slight elevation changes and gentle bends" and thats not exactly how the OP made it seem his installation worked.

It also says "Lubricate Monthly".
Sure sounds like a PITA to have that system aboard a cruising yacht.

[JoeRobertJr]

The OP did not mention conduits, but I did. I have a center cockpit. The cables exit the pedestal base going into the conduits. They make a 90 degree curve to reach the shaft alley to make their way to the rudder. The worst is at the rudder, where both sides of my steering cable have 270 degree curves in the conduit before exiting at sheaves that make the final 90 degree bend to the quadrant. Those 270 degree curves are gentle, but...

The recommendation this violates is "• Conduit should have no 90º bends—however gentle—on boats over 30’, as it will make the steering stiff."

I don't have trouble with stiff steering, but I do worry about internal wear. My conduits are also missing any mid-run grease fittings, so that monthly lubrication would be even more difficult.

Again, this is on my list of things to improve.

[s/v Jedi]

I recommend to not listen to whatever someone at the telephone from Edson tells you

First option is to replace with what you have now. If it’s stainless wire then it’s 7x19 316SS like Gord wrote.

What is the diameter? Where is the picture of the break? Where was that break related to sheaves, quadrant?

Second option is to improve and that is same diameter Dyneema but only when using specific types: Samson Amsteel Blue (not just Amsteel) or Colligo Dynex Dux or whatever it is called, I get that wrong now and then.

The Dynex Dux is heat-set so less creep but I think I would opt for Amsteel Blue myself because I have so much experience and trust in the product.

You will have constructional stretch after splicing. I recommend to splice one end, then stretch it using a winch, then splice the other end to size: hopefully the shortening factor due to the splice equals the constructional stretch afterwards… it will be very close, for me that system is good enough.

After using for an hour, check and tighten and again after a couple of hours.

I just replaced the last of our four running backstays which are Amsteel Blue 3/8” and they were from 2005. Where the splice sat around the clevis pins the Amsteel looked like glass, hard as steel and not a single strand was broken. That is 19 years in the tropics!

On ordering materials in Panama: call Marine Warehouse. For a local contact call Arturo Romero +507 6702 9256
You can use the West Marine website or the Marine Warehouse website and order anything. Cheap shipping via ocean freight or quick with FedEx for which you get 60% discount on FedEx rate and delivered to the boat. They take care of Customs.

[s/v Jedi]

On the subject of conduit: there should be no conduit. The cable should be visible over it’s entire length for inspection and replacement after a break. It should have large sheaves (mine are 8” diameter) and clearance all along the wire.

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by BenBowSirocco

Its funny some people keeps suggesting "experts" when a good bunch of us here on the forum have worked in the marine industry for decades.
Half the time when I call a marine company with real technical questions I get some 20 something "engineer" on the phone who has never been sailing in their lives. Like they can help beyond anything theoretical or that isnt included in their company policy manual..

..I digress..



OP: can you provide any photos or info on this "conduit" that redirects your cable??
Typically you never want anything that is not bearinged to touch a cable in motion as it chafes both objects and dramatically shortens the lifespan of both cable and the object. So I am very curious what these conduits are. I am 100% sure you are correct that it violates Edson recommendations.. haha

Gord is correct on the cable type. Though in most categories the inclusion of Molybdenum makes the 316 slightly stronger- not weaker.
7-7-7 304/316, often called "Aircraft Cable" is designed for a lot more flex than your typical 1x19 rigging cable.

Dyneema is an awesome replacement, but be aware- you size dyneema for creep not breaking strength and the chafe characteristics of dyneema compared to wire is very low- so again that "conduit" you have rules that option right out.

Many people on this forum are experienced but are they experienced with a particular design of yacht - balanced/unbalanced spade rudder, long keel/fin keel, center/aft cockpit, diameter of quadrant, diameter of pulleys. tonnage of yacht....

But why not stick with the original design specifications?

I didn't think the yacht had conduit? (I must have missed that)

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

On the subject of conduit: there should be no conduit. The cable should be visible over it’s entire length for inspection and replacement after a break. It should have large sheaves (mine are 8” diameter) and clearance all along the wire.

I agree! Why would a designer use conduit on a yacht this size/design?

( I get the distinct impression some people commenting here think that conduit is a necessary and normal part of yacht steering)

[JoeRobertJr]

Originally Posted by coopec43

I didn't think the yacht had conduit? (I must have missed that)

The OP did not mention conduit. I did, because mine uses conduit to negotiate the path from the pedestal to the rudder, a path that is not easily divided into straight segments.

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by JoeRobertJr

The OP did not mention conduit. I did, because mine uses conduit to negotiate the path from the pedestal to the rudder, a path that is not easily divided into straight segments.

Your Mariner 39 ft is center cockpit as is mine? I had no trouble routing the cable from the chain to the quadrant without conduits. I know when I was considering conduit many people advised me (including specialists) not to use it.

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by Peter Hunt

I have a 46.3 Grand Soleil, and the rudder cable has broken. I need advice as to what cable to replace it with.

Long story short, it broke coming into Panama, 4 meter waves, 30+ knots wind, just when I did not want it to. To add to the drama, the autopilot kept disconnecting, and we could have been in some real trouble because of that. But the sea gods were smiling on us and it worked out.

I sacrificed (chopped up) a life line(rail line) and made a replacement at sea, while the autopilot held on, and that worked, but broke after one day. I did it again, and we made it in.

The lifeline is much stiffer, and did not like going around the pulley, which I assume made it break.

Which brings me to....

What kind of aircraft cable, stainless cable, etc do I need. No one here seems to know the answer. To my disappointment, Panama does not have great Chandleries, you have to go source stuff yourself. I can do that, but was hoping to make sure I get the right type of cable.

Thanks!!!

Peter


I have had the top of the rudder post machined square. In the event of a steering cable breakage I can remove the quadrant cover (under the aft cabin floor), ram an emergency steering extension tube up through the deck (normally sealed by a press fit cap), attach a steering arm and sail into the nearest port for repairs.

But all the steering cable (7X19) is easily accessible for inspection so I hope I will never need to use it

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I recommend to not listen to whatever someone at the telephone from Edson tells you

You obviously have a poor opinion of Edson?

Do you really think a firm like Edson would give technical information frivolously over the phone?

"For recommended sizes, see the table below. Edson will also supply, upon request, Data Sheets and recommendations covering the best system for your boat. For boats being able to use more than one system, recommendations will be given in order of preference. For specific information for converting or planning your boat, send us your construction drawings and/or sales literature along with the
type of steering system you wish to install".

https://edsonmarine.com/content/EB381SteeringGuide.pdf

[NevilleCat]

Hmmmm seems like a bit of overthinking and thread confusion here.
As previously mentioned, some 7 by 19 wire and cable clamps should get you out of trouble, probably go another 20 years.
I'd be trying to get that autopilot sorted...

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by NevilleCat

Hmmmm seems like a bit of overthinking and thread confusion here.
As previously mentioned, some 7 by 19 wire and cable clamps should get you out of trouble, probably go another 20 years.
I'd be trying to get that autopilot sorted...

Time maybe very critical - no time for clamping cables. What if one of the sheave bearings collapsed?

Maybe the steering cable is not really accessible? Maybe the break happened just near a conduit?

[Peter Hunt]

Originally Posted by wholybee

Edson marine sells the right cable, pre spliced to a chain. It uses more strands, so is flexible. I'm not sure the grade of SS they use.

I had my cable break offshore, and replaced it underway with dyneema. I always carry a couple hundred feet for emergency use. I believe it is a far better solution, and I will not go back. Steel will fatigue from bending back and forth too many times around the sheeve. My SS cable was 4 years old, about 20000 nm miles. Prior to the start of the passage, I inspected it, and there were no signs of any problem. It just exceeded the number of times it could bend, and let go.

Dyneema doesn't do that. As long as your system doesn't have any places to chafe (you might need to replace sheeves, and be careful the routing) it should last forever. I just did a 10,000 mile inspection, and found some chafe wear I am addressing, but I still feel it a better product for this use.

It is also cheaper and easier to work with than stainless steel cable.

You know, underway I was considering doing exactly that, but I did not, as the dyneema I have onboard was much bigger, but I think I will look into this, as I had all the same thoughts when it happened. My cable only goes vertically through about an inch of conduit and does not seem to touch it at all.


Does anyone else have any thoughts on dyneema for this, I was worried about the chafing as well, but my runs are completely free of contact, I would just have to check the sheaves and their condition.


Do you remember the size of dyneema you replaced it with?

[Peter Hunt]

Originally Posted by coopec43

You need expert advice from someone specializing in the field, maybe Edson or the yacht constructor,

https://www.grandsoleil.net/

Don't rely on internet forums!

Well, respectfully, I have found much advice to improve things on my boat here, and other forums, but yes, it involves searching through the posts and using common sense to sort the wheat from the chafe.


Sometimes you get some brilliant solutions to things, sometimes you get crap.

[Peter Hunt]

Originally Posted by coopec43

The Grand Solent 46 is aft cockpit so the steering cable should be quite short. You can get Edson specification online for yachts up to about 34ft but you would need specialist advice (maybe from Edson) for a yacht your size and and no doubt a balanced rudder.

My yacht is 43ft, center cockpit cruising yacht. Because of the length of steering cable I went for 10mm 7/19 SS cable to avoid "slop" at the helm caused by steering cable stretch.

I hope your pulleys (sheaves) are over 8 inch diameter otherwise your cable will fray and eventually snap. I machined mine up using a "V" belt pulley and a roller race. (The alternative was to buy X10 at $285 ea.)

My pulleys are MUCh smaller than than, about 4-5 inches, and there is not a lot of room to make them larger. They are however easily adjustable for angle etc. Hmmmmmmm I agree this is a problem spot, and I will look further to see if they can be upsized.