Replacement Rudder Cable Advice

[Peter Hunt]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Gordy has it figured out. It’s the same wire used for halyards. Many years ago I had to use Mexican clothesline wire and Nico presses to replace mine and it got us to Hawaii with no problems. In my experience that wire doesn’t suddenly break it starts to slowly go strand by strand and usually on the backside of pulleys on the inside side of the pulley. Get used to inspecting it with a small wad of toilet paper in your hand and run it over all the wire, have someone turn the wheel so you get it all if it’s starting to break down it will pull bits of the paper off and leave them behind. Another thing to watch for is often when a cable is breaking down it starts to stretch if you start to notice some slop in your steering crawl downthere and have a good look. Should be a normal part of your checklist before an ocean crossing.

It is definitively not the same as halyard wires, it is a very fine stranded SS wire that was there. MUCH more flexible.

[Peter Hunt]

Originally Posted by BenBowSirocco

OP: can you provide any photos or info on this "conduit" that redirects your cable??
Typically you never want anything that is not bearinged to touch a cable in motion as it chafes both objects and dramatically shortens the lifespan of both cable and the object. So I am very curious what these conduits are. I am 100% sure you are correct that it violates Edson recommendations.. haha



Gord is correct on the cable type. Though in most categories the inclusion of Molybdenum makes the 316 slightly stronger- not weaker.
7-7-7 304/316, often called "Aircraft Cable" is designed for a lot more flex than your typical 1x19 rigging cable.



Dyneema is an awesome replacement, but be aware- you size dyneema for creep not breaking strength and the chafe characteristics of dyneema compared to wire is very low- so again that "conduit" you have rules that option right out.

There is basically no conduit, not sure where that came from, and my run seems perfect, I do not have any chafing spots, etc. The boat design was great, although the pulley size is a little small, about 5"



I will check with the experts as well, but I am fairly sure I can solve this one, was just wondering about the cable options. Just have to find a flexible SS or dyneema cable.


It does go through the boat vertically, at the helm, for about 1 inch, but does not seem to touch there at all, lands right on the sheaves, and turn directly to the rudder quadrant. So the run is clean and short.

[Peter Hunt]

Originally Posted by coopec43

Peter


I have had the top of the rudder post machined square. In the event of a steering cable breakage I can remove the quadrant cover (under the aft cabin floor), ram an emergency steering extension tube up through the deck (normally sealed by a press fit cap), attach a steering arm and sail into the nearest port for repairs.

But all the steering cable (7X19) is easily accessible for inspection so I hope I will never need to use it

I have an emergency tiller, but given the room between the rudder stock and the helm, it is about half the length of yours. I hope to never have to use it, it is welded with ends to hook up to my two winches.

[Peter Hunt]

Originally Posted by coopec43

Time maybe very critical - no time for clamping cables. What if one of the sheave bearings collapsed?

Maybe the steering cable is not really accessible? Maybe the break happened just near a conduit?

Time was super critical, but those clamps saved me. I cut off the crimp, and reclamped my cable to the chain. That worked.

[Peter Hunt]

Originally Posted by NevilleCat

Hmmmm seems like a bit of overthinking and thread confusion here.
As previously mentioned, some 7 by 19 wire and cable clamps should get you out of trouble, probably go another 20 years.
I'd be trying to get that autopilot sorted...

I will say, that from what I experienced, a SMALL 7x19 cable will help in and emergency, but is absolutely NOT a good solution as it will not bend enough. Not nearly enough.


It broke in less than a day, at the sheave where it was bending. I had to replace it again, and almost another time before we arrived. I installed it VERY loose, to reduce the bending problem at the sheave the second time, and that helped.



But it did save me, so that is good!

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by Peter Hunt

You know, underway I was considering doing exactly that, but I did not, as the dyneema I have onboard was much bigger, but I think I will look into this, as I had all the same thoughts when it happened. My cable only goes vertically through about an inch of conduit and does not seem to touch it at all.

Does anyone else have any thoughts on dyneema for this, I was worried about the chafing as well, but my runs are completely free of contact, I would just have to check the sheaves and their condition.

Do you remember the size of dyneema you replaced it with?

You might be interested in this article.


Replacing wire steering cable with Dyneema

https://edsonmarine.com/blog/replaci...-with-dyneema/

[Peter Hunt]

Originally Posted by coopec43

You might be interested in this article.


Replacing wire steering cable with Dyneema

https://edsonmarine.com/blog/replaci...-with-dyneema/

The setup in this article is basically exactly my steering system, the only difference is I have two separate sheaves, close together, and this has a double unit.


Looks good, now I will take it apart and inspect for burrs etc, to see if Dyneema is my friend.


Thanks for the link!

[Peter Hunt]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I recommend to not listen to whatever someone at the telephone from Edson tells you

First option is to replace with what you have now. If it’s stainless wire then it’s 7x19 316SS like Gord wrote.

What is the diameter? Where is the picture of the break? Where was that break related to sheaves, quadrant?

Second option is to improve and that is same diameter Dyneema but only when using specific types: Samson Amsteel Blue (not just Amsteel) or Colligo Dynex Dux or whatever it is called, I get that wrong now and then.

The Dynex Dux is heat-set so less creep but I think I would opt for Amsteel Blue myself because I have so much experience and trust in the product.

You will have constructional stretch after splicing. I recommend to splice one end, then stretch it using a winch, then splice the other end to size: hopefully the shortening factor due to the splice equals the constructional stretch afterwards… it will be very close, for me that system is good enough.

After using for an hour, check and tighten and again after a couple of hours.

I just replaced the last of our four running backstays which are Amsteel Blue 3/8” and they were from 2005. Where the splice sat around the clevis pins the Amsteel looked like glass, hard as steel and not a single strand was broken. That is 19 years in the tropics!

On ordering materials in Panama: call Marine Warehouse. For a local contact call Arturo Romero +507 6702 9256
You can use the West Marine website or the Marine Warehouse website and order anything. Cheap shipping via ocean freight or quick with FedEx for which you get 60% discount on FedEx rate and delivered to the boat. They take care of Customs.

I was going to clamp it, I think the loss in strength will be fine, and Edson themselves say it is a good solution. I can get it close, and have two adjusters of 5 cm or more each. What is this creep everyone keeps mentioning, some code word for stretch?

[Peter Hunt]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

On ordering materials in Panama: call Marine Warehouse. For a local contact call Arturo Romero +507 6702 9256
You can use the West Marine website or the Marine Warehouse website and order anything. Cheap shipping via ocean freight or quick with FedEx for which you get 60% discount on FedEx rate and delivered to the boat. They take care of Customs.

Is this the one in Panama City? Waiting for them to open to call.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Peter Hunt

... I sacrificed (chopped up) a life line(rail line) and made a replacement at sea, while the autopilot held on, and that worked, but broke after one day. I did it again, and we made it in.
The lifeline is much stiffer, and did not like going around the pulley, which I assume made it break...

Originally Posted by Peter Hunt

I will say, that from what I experienced, a SMALL 7x19 cable will help in and emergency, but is absolutely NOT a good solution as it will not bend enough. Not nearly enough.
It broke in less than a day, at the sheave where it was bending...

Your lifeline was, almost certainly 1 x 19 construction - not the much more flexible 7 x 19, typically used in cable/pulley steering systems & halyards.
Aircraft wire rope cable is specified by the number of strands, in the rope, times the number of wires, in each strand. 7x19 is the most flexible, of the “standard” marine cable constructions. The greater the number of wires, in a strand or cable, of a given diameter, the more flexibility it has.
Your original steering cable may have been a more "exotic" construction, with even more wires.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Peter Hunt

Is this the one in Panama City? Waiting for them to open to call.

Arturo is the local agent in Panama who will take care of delivery, customs etc. They have some items in warehouse but most will be shipped from Miami.

Tell him Jedi says Hi!

[s/v Jedi]

What I mean by not taking advice over the phone is that the experts are not going to answer the phone nor be available to take your call.

You read the documentation produced by the experts and do as they recommend. If that isn’t enough you either ask here and find out who is just fooling around and who actually knows things, or you hire a professional to do everything for you.

It’s as simple as that.

About wire clamps: my cable has wire clamps and has had them since launch in 1994. I replaced them once or twice.

About 7x19 wire: this does not break in an hour by running over a sheave. It is designed to run over sheaves and has been used for halyards over a 3-4” sheave for ages. Same for hoists, cable winches, cranes etc.
You probably had 1x19 wire instead of 7x19 or an inferior product.

I recommend to carry lengths of Amsteel Blue starting with the diameter of your capshrouds and a length 15’ longer than the capshrouds, then smaller diameters at 1/2”, 3/8”, 1/4” and 7/64”. Also, carry a spool of Lash-It and learn how to splice the Amsteel. With that at hand you can fix anything.

[GordMay]

FWIW: Edson typically specifies*: #50 CHAIN, & 7X19 type 305 SS [NOT 316, as I previously suggested] WIRE ROPE, of various diameters.
* Sailboat Steering Parts by Boat ➥ https://edsonmarine.com/sailboat-data-sheets/
Steering Inspection Checklist ➥ https://edsonmarine.com/content/EB-3...Inspection.pdf

[Peter Hunt]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Your lifeline was, almost certainly 1 x 19 construction - not the much more flexible 7 x 19, typically used in cable/pulley steering systems & halyards.
Aircraft wire rope cable is specified by the number of strands, in the rope, times the number of wires, in each strand. 7x19 is the most flexible, of the “standard” marine cable constructions. The greater the number of wires, in a strand or cable, of a given diameter, the more flexibility it has.
Your original steering cable may have been a more "exotic" construction, with even more wires.

Whoops, you are right, I read that wrong, AND typed it wrong. The stiff lifeline was too stiff. The original cable was much more flexible, probably the 7x19

[Peter Hunt]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

What I mean by not taking advice over the phone is that the experts are not going to answer the phone nor be available to take your call.

You read the documentation produced by the experts and do as they recommend. If that isn’t enough you either ask here and find out who is just fooling around and who actually knows things, or you hire a professional to do everything for you.

It’s as simple as that.

About wire clamps: my cable has wire clamps and has had them since launch in 1994. I replaced them once or twice.

About 7x19 wire: this does not break in an hour by running over a sheave. It is designed to run over sheaves and has been used for halyards over a 3-4” sheave for ages. Same for hoists, cable winches, cranes etc.
You probably had 1x19 wire instead of 7x19 or an inferior product.

I recommend to carry lengths of Amsteel Blue starting with the diameter of your capshrouds and a length 15’ longer than the capshrouds, then smaller diameters at 1/2”, 3/8”, 1/4” and 7/64”. Also, carry a spool of Lash-It and learn how to splice the Amsteel. With that at hand you can fix anything.

To agree with you, the 7x9 wire broke after (maybe) 20 years, unless it had been replaced, and IT did not break at a sheave, but right in mid-air. No idea why. It was between the sheave and the rudder quadrant.


The lifeline 1x19 did break at the sheave, less than 24 hours later, and lasted much longer when I reinstalled a piece much looser, about as loose as I could without it falling off the quadrant.