Replacing the Nonskid on a F-44

[trashpad]

I was going to go with one more coat of epoxy on top of the 2.5 oz and then two coats of 2 part epoxy primer. I was using 120 on the epoxy before the primer. The primer I am using is super thick stuff and still playing around with the reducer to get an even flow coat.

Kurt

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[minaret]

Originally Posted by trashpad

I was going to go with one more coat of epoxy on top of the 2.5 oz and then two coats of 2 part epoxy primer. I was using 120 on the epoxy before the primer. The primer I am using is super thick stuff and still playing around with the reducer to get an even flow coat.

Kurt

Sent from my SM-N900V using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

Good luck!

[trashpad]

Hello Minaret,

I had planned to apply another coat of epoxy on top of the layer of 2.5 oc cloth which I did yesterday. I did follow your guidance to use 220 on the cloth layer. It did not take much to knock down some of the ripples and high spots. After that a quick two rag wipe with Acetone and then the second coat of epoxy. Do you think this will be enough or should I apply a third coat before the primer? I plan to nonskid most of the area only having a 2 inch smooth water way on the edge.

Thanks for your help,


Kurt

[minaret]

Originally Posted by trashpad

Hello Minaret,

I had planned to apply another coat of epoxy on top of the layer of 2.5 oc cloth which I did yesterday. I did follow your guidance to use 220 on the cloth layer. It did not take much to knock down some of the ripples and high spots. After that a quick two rag wipe with Acetone and then the second coat of epoxy. Do you think this will be enough or should I apply a third coat before the primer? I plan to nonskid most of the area only having a 2 inch smooth water way on the edge.

Thanks for your help,


Kurt

To be clear, I think final fairing in solid glass and resin coats is nuts. This is what 407 is for. Instead of applying multiple coats of neat epoxy and then sanding that out, trowel on a pass of 407 by chemical bond, just after the laminate has tacked up. Your sanding will go much much faster this way, you will use less grit, have less potential problems with blush, etc.


Consider also your waterway layout. Big skid pads are bad, you want to keep them down to a manageable size. This is so that when your deck needs repairs, you only need to refinish one relatively small skid pad, instead of a massive area of deck. It also looks better and sheds water more efficiently when done right.

[trashpad]

I get it now what you are saying. Sorry for being dense. From reading the other post here on CF I had the understanding that you needed to apply two coats of neat epoxy on top of the 407 to seal it and stop pinholes. Something like that. And then two coats of high build primer.

So moving forward here is my plan.

1. Remove the old glued in non-skid

2. Sand out any old compromised filler and the waterways. This should leave a almost fair surface. Use 407 for any deep low spots(?).

3. Apply one layer of 2.5 oz cloth with epoxy

4. When the epoxy on the cloth will just leave a finger print apply a coat of 407.

5. Sand the 407 with 180 or 220

6. Apply two coats of primer.

7. Move on the next spot.

I did not add the blush removal and two rag wipe when needed.

After I get all the deck done I will start sanding the primer with 180 on the non-skid areas and 440 on the waterways. Then it will be time to top coat the water ways and non-skid the rest.

Does this sound right.


Kurt

[minaret]

Originally Posted by trashpad

I get it now what you are saying. Sorry for being dense. From reading the other post here on CF I had the understanding that you needed to apply two coats of neat epoxy on top of the 407 to seal it and stop pinholes. Something like that. And then two coats of high build primer.

So moving forward here is my plan.

1. Remove the old glued in non-skid

2. Sand out any old compromised filler and the waterways. This should leave a almost fair surface. Use 407 for any deep low spots(?).

3. Apply one layer of 2.5 oz cloth with epoxy

4. When the epoxy on the cloth will just leave a finger print apply a coat of 407.

5. Sand the 407 with 180 or 220

6. Apply two coats of primer.

7. Move on the next spot.

I did not add the blush removal and two rag wipe when needed.

After I get all the deck done I will start sanding the primer with 180 on the non-skid areas and 440 on the waterways. Then it will be time to top coat the water ways and non-skid the rest.

Does this sound right.


Kurt

Yes, except at 5 I would not start with 180. More like 120-150-180. Unless your fills are really really nice, this will be faster than boarding fair in 180 and then 220 on the waterways. After primer sand 400 dry for waterway prep. 220 or even 320 scratches will show right through the topcoat, make sure to get them all out.

[Glenn.Brooks]

I ve been following your reports and want to compliment you on taking on the scope of work involved in fixing your non skid. I am really curious to know why you are using epoxy and filler rather than the more simple fiberglass resin mat and cloth? Epoxy is horribly hard on your pocketbook when doing decks with the square footage you are dealing with, $400/gal epoxy compared to around $75/gal FG retail, and the extra filling/grinding/ prep work and 15% strength premium is massive additional work for the epoxy work you are describing- glass is so much easier to work with, so just curious why not do the job in fiberglass ?

BTW, which ever way you go, if you use a belt sander to grind down the surface, then liberally finish off with a smooth finish coat you will save weeks and weeks, maybe months of prep and rebuild time. Plus,a belt sander does not create a dust cloud like a finish sander.

Good luck on your project!


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[trashpad]

Originally Posted by minaret

Yes, except at 5 I would not start with 180. More like 120-150-180. Unless your fills are really really nice, this will be faster than boarding fair in 180 and then 220 on the waterways. After primer sand 400 dry for waterway prep. 220 or even 320 scratches will show right through the topcoat, make sure to get them all out.

Thanks for the advice. Now that I have the proper plan this is going to be a breeze . From the sections that I have done so far this plan is going to save so much time and material. The hardest part is removing the old stuff.


Kurt

[trashpad]

Originally Posted by Glenn.Brooks

I ve been following your reports and want to compliment you on taking on the scope of work involved in fixing your non skid. I am really curious to know why you are using epoxy and filler rather than the more simple fiberglass resin mat and cloth? Epoxy is horribly hard on your pocketbook when doing decks with the square footage you are dealing with, $400/gal epoxy compared to around $75/gal FG retail, and the extra filling/grinding/ prep work and 15% strength premium is massive additional work for the epoxy work you are describing- glass is so much easier to work with, so just curious why not do the job in fiberglass ?

BTW, which ever way you go, if you use a belt sander to grind down the surface, then liberally finish off with a smooth finish coat you will save weeks and weeks, maybe months of prep and rebuild time. Plus,a belt sander does not create a dust cloud like a finish sander.

Good luck on your project!


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Hello Glen,

I do not know where you get your epoxy from but I found a local source in Baltimore for $60 a gallon. If I had to pay $400 a gallon I would be going a different route. I also got my fiberglass 2.5 oz cloth, 100 yards, 56" wide for $150.00. BTW, they sell polyester resin for $37.50 a gallon so it is not terribly more to go with epoxy. So far with my limited experience I have found epoxy very easy to work with. I have rebuilt three houses the past 20 some years and hated doing the mud work on the drywall but it has all paid off with the skill to apply a nice smooth skim coat of 407 which requires very little sanding.

I have tried several different methods of removing the old non-skid. The Oscillating Multifunction Power Tool with a blunt blade works good in the spots where the non-skid is already loose and creates no dust. I also tried a small hand power plane but it is very loud and easy to go to deep so that one is back on the shelf. For the hard stuff I have been using a 4.5 inch grinder with 24 grit sanding wheel. It can eat through the hard stuff but dust everywhere. I ended up taking a large storage bin upside down and removed one side. This made a nice containment box that is not perfect but goes a long way to keeping the mess down. I work in small sections and clean up often with the shop vac. The final material removal and surface prep is done with my 6" RO sander connected to the shop vac. Very little if any dust with this tool.


Kurt

[minaret]

I have a "dust box" I sometimes use when I have to do heavy grinding in a marina where it is not allowed. It's a medium-small plexiglass aquarium box, about 3'x2'x2'. I've installed heavy rubber gloves in the sides, like a sand blaster box. It has 3" soft foam around the lip, so when you turn it upside down and put it on a deck, the foam contours to the deck camber and forms a seal. It has a fluorescent light built in, and a vacuum port. Very easy to make, lots of heavy grinding with almost no dust, no Tyvek required. It is, however, slow and cumbersome. Might be perfect for your situation, where you are doing single pads.



If you have good air, you might consider an air file. Festool makes an electric, but it costs a fortune and doesn't work as well. A cheap Makita 1/3 sheet sander can be a good final fairing option as well. Personally, I never touch a surface with anything but longboards in various forms, until after primer. But most people don't realize there is such a thing as a powered longboard!

[Glenn.Brooks]

Hi Kurt, $60 is a very good price! Iam in the Seattle area and both epoxy and FG are much more expensive. West epoxy quotes something like $250 gal for base and $150 gal for catalyst. Hi grade FG is around $60-$70 gal also.

When I recored decks and cockpit on my alberg 30 I had two concerns with epoxy (aside from cost). First was epoxy bounds well with FG structure, but Fiberglas does not adhere adequately to epoxy. So if you do an epoxy repair, one can not latter go back and overlap FG mat and roving over the epoxy. So if you have an adjacent repair job of some sort, must use epoxy and hope that it will properly penetrate and layup mat and roving - which many epoxies won't do. Hence my second concern - standard industrial grade epoxy is not viscous enough to properly wet out mat and roving, hence one gets white streaks and occasional dry patches within the layup. White streaks are fiberglass strands that have no resin embedded and the dry patches are larger areas with no resin. This causes structural weaknesses and also are pockets of possible water retention. Finally, on the flip side, fiberglass resin is superbly engineered to work with mat and roving and is ideally suited for repairing existing areas. So for me, after several failed goes at mixing epoxy and cloth, I finally decided - hey FG is superb, why use epoxy?

Also, I almost never use filler, unless Iam bedding foam core. Filler has very little lateral strength and is subject to cracking when the deck flexes. As an analogy, think of what happens to the thin layer of epoxy or glass that coats the inside of a plastic mixing bucket. Flex it and it cracks and breaks. So I always lay resin, mat and roving to build up surfaces. The combination has massive strength in shear, compression and bending and won't let you down when finished.

Anyway, just my 2cents worth. Hate to see you go through a huge project only to maybe find it needs to be redone because of flexing and possible material failure.

[trashpad]

minaret,

I may have to modify my dust box a bit. How about a 10' x 10' with AC when it is hot! I do have a big air compressor and looked at the air powered longboard. I might have to get one if I wear out my arms. So far it has not been that bad but when I get toward the bow I will let you know.


Kurt

[trashpad]

Originally Posted by Glenn.Brooks

When I recored decks and cockpit on my alberg 30 I had two concerns with epoxy (aside from cost). First was epoxy bounds well with FG structure, but Fiberglas does not adhere adequately to epoxy. So if you do an epoxy repair, one can not latter go back and overlap FG mat and roving over the epoxy. So if you have an adjacent repair job of some sort, must use epoxy and hope that it will properly penetrate and layup mat and roving - which many epoxies won't do.

I thought I read or was told at one time that my F-44 was an epoxy built boat so just to make sure of the bond I wanted to go with epoxy. I am not sure how you can tell the difference 10 years later but it all looks the same to me.

Also if I was doing anything structural then I might take a different route. As it stands with this project, the original laminate is sound and I am just removing 1/4' of old crap and installing 1/16' of new stuff. As long as the epoxy lives up to its reputation and sticks like a glove to a stable surface I am hoping I never have to do this again.

Thanks for your comments, they get me thinking which is good.

Kurt

[Glenn.Brooks]

Certainly if it's epoxy, you are doing the right thing! A surveyor once told me one way to check is to rub down a small area with acetone. If the surface gets tacky with acetone, it's Fiberglass. If not, it's epoxy. Fiberglass contains styrene, which is dissolved by the acetone. epoxy does not, so is more or less inert to the acetone. Good luck on the project! Sounds like you've got it nailed.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by trashpad

minaret,

I may have to modify my dust box a bit. How about a 10' x 10' with AC when it is hot! I do have a big air compressor and looked at the air powered longboard. I might have to get one if I wear out my arms. So far it has not been that bad but when I get toward the bow I will let you know.


Kurt

Yeah, that's what I call a "bubble tent". Couple of PVC bows and some plastic sheeting. A high output fan with a home made plastic sheeting duct taped to the output and attached to the bubble is almost as good as AC. Makes positive pressure which prevents your vac creating enough negative pressure to want to collapse your bubble. I've also been known to just throw a big sheet of plastic over me while grinding. Works better than nothing, particularly if it's windy, but it's miserable.