Replacing wire mainsail halyard with line

[GMac]

Put a chafe sleeve over the first metre or so (from the mailsail end) and all should be fine. Ropes chafing at the masthead is a mast exit issue which needs to be looked at.

By chafe sleeve I mean a vectran/spectra over cover. There is many out there which you just side over the existing rope and stitch on or splice in. Easy peasy.

Having had both wire/rope and rope I'm all Vectran (8mm on a 32fter) now (which should be as close as the same price as Spectra by the way).

Toying with a Vectran/PBO main halyard in 5mm but thats still a work in progress. A simple case of boys and rope making toys

[GordMay]

A couple of ”Cruising World”articles by By Jeremy McGeary:

”Getting a Line on Cordage”
Whether you’re seeking the top of the line or watching the bottom one, there’s a wealth of choices if you know your ropes
http://www.cruisingworld.com/article...=397&catID=572

”Getting the Most out of High-Tech Line”
When you use braided ropes made of synthetic fibers, the old ways of doing things don’t always apply
http://www.cruisingworld.com/article...=396&catID=568

The Dope on Rope Makers
AAmstrand Ropes & Twines (815-468-2100, www.aamstrand.com)
Marlow (727-545-1911, www.marlowropes.com)
New England Ropes (508-678-8200, www.neropes.com)
Novatec Braids (508-997-3933, www.novatecbraids.com)
Pelican Rope Works (714-545-0116, www.usrigging.com)
Samson Rope Technologies (360-384-4669, www.samsonrope.com)
Yale Cordage (207-282-3396, www.yalecordage.com)

and

From Layline, Inc. http://www.layline.com/home.asp

”Halyard Myth”
What we did was "volunteer" four 3/16", 12 strand "high-tech" lines for a suicide mission, made them 50ft long with eye splices in each end and strapped them to our rack. The victims were pure PBO, Vectran, Technora, and Dyneema SK75, the cream of our modern day inventory. We were very interested in seeing the effect of cycle loading.
http://www.layline.com/llf/llpages/htmlp2/page2.htm

and

TIPS FROM THE PRO'S: http://www.layline.com/llf/articles/...est%20Tips.htm
including:
Line Stretching : Test Results, The Punisher
http://www.layline.com/llf/articles/...ing%20home.htm

[Pblais]

The folks at Layline are in NC. It's worth a call to them to talk rope. The sales people all know the stuff quite well. At worst you can learn something. I've purchased rope from them and the service is quite good and they can fabricate anything you can describe with very good workmanship.

The links Gord posted are also worth a look see. They like to do fun tests with rope.

[S/V Elusive]

I made switching over to vectran from wire, for my halyards, one of my first priorities. As a liveaboard and a cruiser (ex? to be again? ::sob:: ), I wanted something easily handled, without the potential for meat hooks (I have the memories - and they aren't good), and the quietness. Yessssss, quietness: If you've ever heard a wire halyard slapping against an aluminum mast, you know what I mean - on the hook, in a slip, or under way.

With the proper sizing, a rope halyard is just as strong. The wire may last longer, but the difference isn't THAT much. The weight difference actually (with current technology) favors the rope halyard; although the difference is extremely minor for most uses.

Although I haven't visited any of those sites that Gord posted (damn if he doesn't have more web sites at his fingertips than google!), but I would be willing to bet that most advocate rope vs. wire; granting that those sites are sponsored by rope vendors.

:::tossing 3 aussie cents on the table:::

[GMac]

One thing to remember is that almost all materials made these days are not as good as they used to be, talking older known materials not new flash things like vectran and etc.

The point being most wire made today is not as good as most wire made 20 years ago, sad but true. Hence I very much suspect wire halyards made today will not last as well as wire halyards made 20 years ago. We use a lot of smaller wires and the problems with wire quailty grow bigger each year as manufacturing quality is cut to the bone due to selling price pressures. Once a month for the last few years we get someone new offering us wire supply at a cheaper price than last month. The same thing applies to many things just as the growing number of comments on sites like this will show, "my stainless shackles rust now where they never did before" and the like.

There are good performance gains to be made using fibre halyards, obviously on a big heavy cruiser this will not be very appearent but with many of the lighter more performance targeted ones it will be.

There is nothing wrong with Rope to Wire halyards and we make many but it is another thing where it is easy to see the 'the writing on the wall' as they say. All fibre halyards and now the most popular by far.

Vectran is massively stronger than wire on weight for weight basis and chafe should not be an issue if you have sorted out your masthead hence a vectran halyard should last many many years. If your just cruising don't strip the cover back and it will last a pile longer.

Yeap Elusive I think we should change Gord's name to Gorddle or YaGord maybe? A mine of good stuff.

[hellosailor]

Gmac, aren't there specs or proof tests or something so we can be sure of the quality of line and wire?

And when someone speaks of stainless rusting, isn't that more often because someone used carbon steel tools and didn't bother pickling it afterwards? At least here in the US, IIRC pickling used to be done with a nasty acid bath, and EPA regulations have made shops change to a "friendly" citric acid instead, which just doesn't make the pickles quite as tangy. So to speak.

[GMac]

Hello Sailor (a phrase used around here a lot due to being close to a Naval base and also the name of a great Kiwi pub band a few years ago)

Specs on Vectrans and stuff?? basically Vectran is made by one outfit so it should all be the same except for the manufacturing into whatever product, in this case rope. I have yet to see or hear of a poor vectran rope. This, I suspect, is due to the cost i.e it is still a specialist sort of a thing not a massed produced item as such. When it becomes mass produced and very mainstream we will have manufacturers who are not that good making rope and then we will see a few issues, is my best guess.

If you are looking at Vectrans you will see a few differing break loads, this is due to some mixing in a few cheaper fibres to cut the cost. This is not a bad thing and very common with many fibres. Sure you end up with smaller loads then some of the time that is all you need anyway and the budget does like that bit. There is also load (small) and cost (could be big) differances when they play with differant cover materials as well. Vectran with a polyester cover is the most common and pretty good value mostly where you may find one (probably not many would 'stock' it) with a Zylon (PBO) cover which, while looking very similar, will cost 3.2 million moonbeams more (there abouts )

You will also see a few small load differances due to the way each manufacturer tests their rope. Some use machines and pull it apart, some use 'calculated' loads where they just add up the number of fibres being used and multiply by whatever to get a finished load. This is common and a OK way of doing it as the loads each fibre will take is well known. Some use both methods and run averages.

There is also the 'spliced' or not factor. Some manufacturers (a slowly growing number) are now publishing a load which takes into account terminations of that rope i.e. a splice. For a good well done splice you use a 15% decrease in load and you should be fine.

All nearly simple really Vectran can be replaced by Spectra/Dyneema, PBO and most new fancy fibres.

Wire - more and more it is all coming out of the East. This is good and bad. Korea has massive plants banging out good quality wire and basic ropes, mostly for the US market but spreading. China is not that flash as yet and still suffers a lack of basic quality control.

Again wire should have a Test Certificate which can be issued with each batch/run or whatever. In big wires these are seen but on smaller ones you don't see them very often at all.

With both ropes and wires the person selling it should have a good understanding of where it is from, what sort of quality it is and the relavent loads. Sadly I suspect the world retailers are similar to ours where the pay package is the major decider of who works where as opposed to knowledge. I'm sure that is why we are getting busier and busier these days, a small outfit that knows our products very well. We get a lot coming in saying "XX retail marine chain" told us "YYYY" but is does not sound right, usually they are quite correct to question what they were told.

** Example only ** A bloke in WM makes a cock-up and tells you a pile of c**p (not hard really when they have 40,000 items in the shop so who can know much about all of them), you use that info and hopefully before it kills you you find out you have been given bum advise. Complain to WM and they may sort it but losing you won't effect them much, if anything at all. Walk into my (or any other small specialist outfit) place and get given bum advise and you can hurt us a lot, very very easily.

Also remember that while we may know a pile more than the chain stores we also must be very competitive on price. Worth a thought next time you go shopping for that special thing

Anyone spot the shameles plug for us little fellas battling away

Generally the better gear come with better info on the package. We get some of our performance range ropes from Samson in the US and it has about 1/2 a small forest of paperwork with each reel. We get some of our price based range from a smaller manufacturer in Korea and that comes with bugger all, nice rope but a price based one.

Like most things you either have to find someone who knows their product well or take a bit of a punt unfortunatly. Ask questions and see what sort of answers you get, ask around other boaties or find a manufacturer you like and ask them who sells their gear.

One key thing to remember - just becease it has a well known flash name on it does not mean they actually make it i.e Nike, Tommy Halfinger, Plasimo, WM and sadly now Levi being just some good examples.

'The Global Village' - just a fancy name for freeing things up so multinational corparations can do what they want, where they want and when they want. Helping 3rd world countries is what they tell us but that's bollix, sorry. Anyone spot a sceptic

The 'rust' comment was just an example of how some materials used these days are not as good as they used to be. Mind you our chinese stainless will rust many years before our Italian stainless, all relative to the amount of dashboards left in when making the steel I suspect

[hellosailor]

GMac-
Aside from naval bases, it also was found in one of the Zork computer games. (For those who are old enough to remember text based computer games.<G>)

Specs on Vectran? No, I was referring to wire ropes. Cheating on wire ropes is nothing new, the Brooklyn Bridge was almost built with defective wire rope and there was a whole contracting scandal about it. That's how old the cheating on wire rope problem is.

"Wire - more and more it is all coming out of the East. This is good and bad. ...China is not that flash as yet and still suffers a lack of basic quality control."
Actually, I think the Middle Kingdom is perfectly capable of outstanding quality control. And, I'm just as certain that there is still a belief that the wide-eyes from the Low Kingdom only come around looking for price, and as long as that's what they want...give it to 'em, any way you can.
A number of the "China Net" official state IP's in China appear to have an active role in sponsoring and harboring various criminal scam schemes, they routinely shut their administrative email addresses so they can't even be bothered by complaints, unless you're dropping in to visit.
And their work on pebble bed reactors might, just might, free them from a lot of petrodollars well ahead of the "other half" of the globe.

"Again wire should have a Test Certificate "
Yeah, those were IIRC forged for the Brooklyn Bridge.<G> Considering the number of "Made in China" products we see in the US with forged UL-certificates, holograms, etc., I wouldn't put any great faith in a piece of paper coming with Chinese wire and cable. The government sanction of "Hey, let's rob the wide eyes" just seems to endemic.

"With ____ the person selling it should have a good understanding of where it is from, what sort of quality it is and"
Wait a minute, so you're saying local drug dealers would have a good business opportunity in the wire & cable trade?<VBG>

"A bloke in WM makes a cock-up and " Yeah, it used to get condemned or sent to the surplus stores but these days, even the wide-eyes want to rob the wide-eyes.

"Mind you our chinese stainless will rust many years before our Italian stainless, " Never driven a Fiat, have you?<G>
Two Chinese car companies were supposed to start shipping into the US market in 2007 or 2008, both have formally announced plans to delay at least one more year because they've understood the concept that their domestic product might just bomb in our market. Like the way Kia and Hyundai have both come a long way in quality--but still suffer because their early reputation was established very well for junk.

[GMac]

No agruement with that.

Yeap China can make real good stuff but you'll pay pretty much the same as stuff from the EU but it will still have that 'made in china' tag.

Chinese Test Certificates are as believable as Santa, the Easter Bunny, "I did not have sex with her" and an honest politician. None exist except Santa of course

I like the drug dealer comment which is probably quite right as well. I does seem to be a market where they do know what they are talking about more than most, very sadly.

Look at Kia and Hyundai now. I'm just wondering how many people in the west will have jobs once China has it's quality control sorted. Not to mention the even bigger and faster growing India. Only 2 and a bit billion people out of 5 odd, a very powerful force when they finally get up to speed.

Re WM - I'm guessing they are just like the retailers here, if you work them well you can save lots of money. Like everyone they have to have a selling point which is usually the big 'specials' sign outside, work the signs and there are big savings. We have a cluster of marine shops in one spot which go head to head often so you can work them nicely with little effort. The specials are their cost or damn close a lot of the time.

I'd still do whatever I need to to not get chinese made wire on my boat for a while at least. Korean? Yes. Indian? not sure to be honest. American? Absolutly, if I could afford it. EU? no worries at all.

[hellosailor]

I find I have a commuication problem with India. Seems to be partly cultural and partly the result of British English training. In the US, "yes" means agreeance. From an Indian, "Yes yes" means "I am hearing you speaking". That can be problematic.

Or course many things about India are problematic. Today it is supposedly located in South Asia and "Indians" and their neighbors referred to as "South Asians". Well...when I went to grade school, South Asia most definitely wasn't India or Pakistan, and no matter how hard the Indian SubContinent rubs & grinds against Asia, it ain't Asia. Southern or otherwise.<G>

I suspect China will be a world player before India, everything I'm hearing is that India has been on an unsustainable track. Among other things, they are having extreme water shortages, they haven't figured out how to keep power running, bandits still rule some areas and steal the power wiring in others...And a number of folks with real credentials as economists are debating whether they will tank or stall out Real Soon Now.

The advantage (if you can sadly call it that) of a despotic government is that when and if the Chinese government gets interested in something, they make it happen in ways the partitioned messes from the UK never can. (Like that huge new dam complex, or pebble bed reactors, or an edict to have something like 20% renewable energy sources online within the decade.)
Then too, there is something only a few of the economists mention. With all the US$ going overseas...there's really only one way to redeem those dollars. They are promisory notes, and they are worthless--UNLESS, you are willing to take something from the US as payment for them. Which means, you have to find something made or done in the US to buy, in order to redeem them. Can't redeem them? TFB.<G>
That already happened something like 20 years ago, when a lot of folks from Japan and points elsewhere "redeemed" their dollars by buying property in the US at the high point in a real estate boom. And then loosing a great deal, when it went bust.
Ah, the magic of High Finance.<G>

[Weyalan]

I managed to purchase 600' of 3/8" Spectra on ebay for 37.5c per foot (not including postage). It was manufactured by a reputable rope maker (Pelican Rope Works) and is now sitting in my shed, pending replacing all my halyards and runners. If you are on a tight budget and have some patience, bargains are out there.

[Tropic Cat]

That's a great price. I just bought some 1/4" Spectra at everyone's favorite marine store and paid .53 a foot for it.

What can I say, there's a West Marine on every street corner and very convienent.

Rick in Florida

[shellback]

my Oday 27 has that set-up, wire halyard with a shackle and running rope line fed eventually back to the cockpit.

I found this thread very interesting, given the discussion on weight, durability, etc. I am debating if I should keep this set up or go full rope running rigging.

[Strygaldwir]

I was speaking with a rigger friend of ours down in Florida a couple years ago (Roger Underwood). He said that while rope/wire halyards are great in theory, many folks don't realize the area of the splice is a major failure point. They think that it last forever and don't replace the rope portion regularly. He has seen a number of failures and even more about to be failures. He recommended that if you do have a boat with this "feature" that you proactively replace it on a regularly scheduled interval. The interval dependant on where you keep the boat. Tropics a "whole" lot more frequently than up north.

[GMac]

Originally Posted by Strygaldwir

I was speaking with a rigger friend of ours down in Florida a couple years ago (Roger Underwood). He said that while rope/wire halyards are great in theory, many folks don't realize the area of the splice is a major failure point. They think that it last forever and don't replace the rope portion regularly. He has seen a number of failures and even more about to be failures. He recommended that if you do have a boat with this "feature" that you proactively replace it on a regularly scheduled interval. The interval dependant on where you keep the boat. Tropics a "whole" lot more frequently than up north.

Been there, done that and seen the spooky bits. I agree 100% especially about the wire - rope interface*.

Something in NZ we see often as some buggers have cut a big hole in the Ozone layer above us. We suffer extra UV issues here than most and it nails many fibres in quick time.

* - just the splice but it sounds a lot cooler saying Interface