rudder mounted haphazardly: what to do?

[neilpride]

In Triny you should stay with the workers 24/7...

[TrentePieds]

Nasty! I was going to say: "I hope you haven't paid the bill!" But be careful, your boat is in hock and you haven't a hope of getting her released unless you pay. I don't know Trinidadian law (and that is what it would come to if you don't pay). I expect commercial law and procedure in Trinidad would be founded on English law and therefore be not unlike Canadian law. Mechanic's lien and all that. But I'm not a lawyer, so get a proper legal opinion, and find out at the same time what avenues of redress you may have. Pay for the opinion so YOU are in control!

I think that if the boat is seaworthy at all, I'd pay the bill, splash 'er, and choosing my weather carefully take her to a REPUTABLE yard and have the work done over again, and properly. And then I would sue the yard that did this work for all the costs that can reasonably be said to have arisen as a consequence of their sloppy work. Keep accurate records! This job looks so bad that it may fall into the rubric of "wilful negligence"
.

Others have asked some pertinent questions and given you some good pointers. In the area of craftsmanship, why wasn't the lower gudgeon on the skeg conformed? Were these gudgeons the original ones that were reinstalled after lowering the rudder? Or were they "off the shelf" or "cast to order"? Did you give the yard any specific instructions as to HOW the work was to be done, e.g. "use the old gudgeons"?

Let's verify: Was the rudder lowered 10 MILLImetres or 10 CENTImetres. which one it is, makes a heckofadifference. 10 Millimetres = 3/8 of an inch. 10 CENTImetres = 4 inches! By the photos it looks like it really IS 4 inches. If so, the gudgeons shoulda been moved UP on the RUDDER, not DOWN on the SKEG.

Why was the skeg rebuilt? Had it been damaged? Did you just want extra area aft? How exactly was the new, added bit fixed to the original part of the skeg?

I wish you all the best, but for your sake, and that of other future clients of that yard, don't woos out :-)!

TrentePieds

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by abacaxi

Hi,

I just got back to my boat (HR 352) to be horrified at the sight of my rudder. I had had some work done while I was away. The lower part of the skeg was rebuilt and this required taking off the rudder...

It would be really helpful if you had some pictures of the skeg from before the repair, or at least give us a detailed description of why it was rebuilt, the extent of damage, etc.

It's clear what happened; Whoever was doing the glass work did not realize that the gudgeon was supposed to be glassed in as part of the repair. It should not even be visible except where it extends back to capture the pintle. The yard's "hack" was to just bolt on what you see instead of grinding it out and doing it properly. Why it's 10cm low is a mystery, unless some other aspect of the repair made fitting it properly impossible.

Everyone is right on all three counts: the rudder hanging is terrible and needs to be completely redone, the fact that the work is terrible casts doubt on the quality of the rest of the work on the skeg, and at 10 cms lower there are cascading issues that need to be investigated, such as the bearings, the alignment of the quadrant and cables, etc.

I do think the 10 cm difference is an issue, not just because of what you've suggested, and the other issues up the post, but also because the whole point of the skeg is to protect the rudder; if it's 4" lower than the bottom of the skeg, that's a problem when it comes to grounding. While the 352 rudder already extends below the keg, it's not that much.

As to the sound of the skeg/rudder being hollow, it depends on where. Rudder skegs are notoriously difficult to lay up well during construction given the tight working spaces, unless they are two halves joined. I doubt that is HR construction. The rudder was probably filled with foam, and if it was also repaired as part of the work you had done they likely did not refill. Not a problem in and of itself, but rudder laminate is so thick on an HR that if it sounds hollow it probably means that the workman skimped. It should sound very thick when you knock on it...almost unreasonably solid.

[rognvald]

Originally Posted by funjohnson

If they dropped the rudder 10cm down, what did they do to the upper bearing? How about the quadrant? Did the drill new holes through the rudder post for these too?

Check the lazarette, there may be more chaos too.

Matt

Quadrant, upper bearing, bolt holes??? This is as serious as the original problem. Excellent observation!.

[blueazimuth]

The "workmanship" is a joke.
It must be redone, and you need to be right there, all the time.
Stainless steel, when constantly underwater, is subject to corrosion, and should not be used in your application.
Solid bronze rod is available in Trinidad or you can make your own by cutting off the head and threads of bronze bolts. Nut & bolts are best not used. Peen the solid bronze over: leaving them slightly proud facilitates annual inspection.
And, of course, there needs to be 3 bolts, not 2, on each gudgeon part.

[SV Bacchus]

Holy Crap! Slot screws! That says a lot right there..

[jimbunyard]

If you watch the video closely to the end, you can see that what the OP means is that they dropped the part that attaches to the rudder (can't tell if it's the gudgeon or the pintle) 4 inches; i.e. the part that bolts to the rudder should fit against the recess in the rudder.

Given the difficulty ensuring a 100 percent seal against sea water intrusion into the spaces within and between the rudder, hull and fittings, bronze bolts (or, as suggested, peened bronze rod) are really the only choice for this application, not because of the possibility of electrolysis, but of crevice corrosion...


As for what to do about it, it would seem that it would be best to try and get the people who did the work to do it right, if that's a no go, get them to let you do it yourself. Find or order the correct bolts, move the rudder to the proper place, drill new holes, fill the old holes with thickened epoxy.
Half-a-days job at most.


If you want to get fancy, fair it all in with epoxy putty and finally antifoul (they should have some leftover). Day-an-a-half to do it that way...

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by SV Bacchus

Holy Crap! Slot screws! That says a lot right there..

I come on, they at least look to be Cad. plated.

I guess I shouldn't make lite of a bad situation.

Looking at the overhang and failure to fill the undercut on the other section was installed backwards along with the obvious?

[abacaxi]

Thanks everyone for your responses. I have been busy dealing with this and other issues here in the yard for about a week now, with little time to reply.

A couple of things:
- the rudder was 4cm lower, not 10cm (I measured after the initial post)
- no explanation could be produced for the poor quality work, only an admission of the mistake
- the old holes were filled and new ones drilled
- the fitting is now being rethreaded as some of the threads were stripped
- the plan is to use stainless steel bolts which I'm concerned about because of the crevice corrosion issue many of you mentioned

Can the stainless steel bolts be bedded to prevent the corrosion issue? What would you use for this? I prefer to use something that would not make it difficult to take the rudder off at a a latter date as it seems I'll have to cover up the brackets with fiberglass at another yard and getting around the fitting would probably require getting it off again (which is not easy, and requires a travel-lift, as the shaft runs all the way up to the deck where an emergency tiller can be fitted).

[TrentePieds]

Quote: "the fitting is now being rethreaded as some of the threads were stripped"

What fitting is it, precisely, that had the threads stripped? It's not obvious from what you've said.

Quote: "the plan is to use stainless steel bolts which I'm concerned about because of the crevice corrosion issue many of you mentioned"

Crevice corrosion takes a while to happen even in tropical waters. Comparing the screw diameter with your finger they look 5/8"-ish so they aren't going to fail for quite a few months.

However, the part of the hinge that is on the skeg, the part called a "pintle", the part with the sticky-UP pin, will need to come off the skeg if in the future you want to take the rudder off by dropping the stock out the bottom of the hull, which is quite a normal practice and, as you say, requires a Travel-lift (or crane) in order to create clearance.

It is essential, therefore, that you DO NOT use screws. You MUST use bolts. The distinction is that bolts have hexagonal heads so you can get a wrench on them to hold counter when you apply torque to turn the nuts off. If you use screws the screwdriver would simply destroy the kerf (the "slot") as you apply torque to the wrench to loosen the nut.

If you cannot get bronze BOLTS where you are, I would leave things as they are and sail her till the next scheduled haul-out. I would do that at a competent yard, having sourced and obtained the proper bolts (diameter AND shank length) in the meantime.

Then, if the screw heads strip when loosening the nuts on the SS screws, grind the nuts and the end of the screws off right flush with the pintle/gudgeon. Then drift out the remainder of the SS screws with a drift and maul. Then fit the new bronze bolts.

Shank length is important because NO part of the bolt's threads should be within the skeg/rudder/pintle,gudgeon save of one or two threads. You achieve that by starting with blots that have shanks that are TOO LONG. Then in the fitting process you use a thread cutting die to rework the threads so they are JUST the right length for the particulate hole where the bolt is to fit.

Best of luck

TrentePieds

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by abacaxi

Can the stainless steel bolts be bedded to prevent the corrosion issue? What would you use for this? I prefer to use something that would not make it difficult to take the rudder off at a a latter date as it seems I'll have to cover up the brackets with fiberglass at another yard and getting around the fitting would probably require getting it off again (which is not easy, and requires a travel-lift, as the shaft runs all the way up to the deck where an emergency tiller can be fitted).

Bronze bolts are not hard to get. I don't understand why the yard is planning on using stainless, at all.

As to whether stainless steel bolts can be bedded to prevent the corrosion issue, steps can be taken to reduce it, but not full on prevent it. You have to assume that water is going to penetrate into fittings areas and the rudder itself; it's a fact of life with assemblies that move underwater. And when dealing with a rudder you want to make it as robust as possible, not only because it's your rudder but also because dropping it is not something you want to do casually. Do it right the first time so you have confidence in it and don't feel compelled to take it apart every time you haul the boat. Most boat's require a travel lift to drop the rudder. That or a backhoe lol.

If you have absolutely no option but to go with stainless bolts, I would slather them and any contact surface with the bronze with Tef-gel, which prevents salt water from getting to those contact areas. Then I would seal and fair the whole thing similar to original construction. But I would really, really try extremely hard to find bronze bolts.

Another option is to simply get it to a point that's good enough to get you to a decent yard that knows what it's doing and resign yourself to the cost and trouble of having it fixed properly in the near future. If the current yard still wants to use stainless and can't give you a reasonable explanation of how this &#%$ happened, I'd pretty much dismiss their work and assume it needs to be redone.

[jimbunyard]

After a little digging, I see where I was confused; the skeg is on the left, the rudder on the right...

Now that you've got the pintle snug up against the recess, so it can be faired successfully in against the leading edge of the skeg, it really doesn't make much sense (efficiently speaking) to not finish the job correctly now, with silicon bronze bolts and epoxy fairing. The bolts appear to me to be 3/8" or so, and should be readily available, if not locally, certainly in the US, and mail is relatively fast.

The problem with trying to seal stainless against water intrusion under the waterline is the differing expansion rates of FRP and metal; eventually water will find its' way in and cause corrosion; bronze isn't subject to crevice corrosion, so that problem is avoided entirely.

[Cadence]

What is the pintail made of? Dissimilar metals are the problem.