Sail boat engine choice - electric or diesel

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

That electric is already sufficient for everyone. It is also getting better all the time.

I have never owned a car and I refuse to even ride in one. I dislike cars almost as much as powerboats.

I don't ride buses either. I use bicycle (few thousand miles a year) and walking as my only land transport. The battery pictured was actually for my bicycle I have yet to try it out so far I only use pedaling. I typically pedal 100-120 miles a day for several days in a row as needed to visit places.

49.5 gallons seems a lot to me. I used less than 2 gallons of alcohol a year (several years less than 1) over 10 years as the only fuel but I managed to eliminate this recently. I mostly use a solar oven now, and before I used wood (and will again when the season changes). In any case 49 gallons doesn't cost much you could consider the benefits of vegetable oil since the cost difference of 49 gallons is not much.

Sean- don’t disagree with you directionally. But let’s be honest- someone who burns less than 50 gallons per year of fossil fuels has to be among the very lowest usage patterns of boaters and worlds better than most who live on land.
If we could fix 50+gallon per hour powerboaters, and the 1000+X users of gas powered land vehicles first- I think wingsail will be FAR down the list of environmental yield.
And, by being hardline and discounting those who aren’t “perfect” but still better than 95% (like wingsail) your methods run the risk of motivating only 0.1% to change as opposed to encouraging many to consider alternative energy or usage reduction.

I won’t yet ditch my diesel given with a young family I have to be on a schedule sometimes with no breeze prevalent on Chesapeake. But others in this thread have me motivated additional ways to reduce my ICE usage by adding solar and considering a code zero for example.

[Adelie]

Have you considered a drifter rather than a CodeZero? C0 is somewhat more effective than a drifter but the drifter will be 1/3 or 1/2 the price and you can point a lot higher with it than the C0.

[Shaneesprit]

Originally Posted by rla

My Volvo MD2 is that age too.
As stated elsewhere do the injector if its not been serviced for years.
the most likely cause of low revs is a restricted exhaust bend, after the water injection point and or a partially blocked exhaust hose. A tremendously hard material is deposited in both areas and usually it's so difficult to remove a new bend and exhaust hose is required and gives dramatic improvement.

Actually to clear a blocked exhaust all you have to do is take the boat out and run with the throttle fully open, as long as the the prop is big enough to provide load to the engine then it will heat all of that carbon and spit it out.
This is caused by never running your engine hard enough. Either motoring too slowly or worse running the engine to charge the batteries.
Really not what they are designed for.

[Mauruuru]

On the other hand with generator it has better range than the standard ic engineBut hey heres the goid news don’t like it, don’t do it.
Won’t keep the rest of us from making improvements.

[seandepagnier]

Originally Posted by MichaelPrichard

I've actually been toying with the idea of mounting (either permanently or temporarily) a large 2-5kW wind turbine (or two) somehow to the mast, or between the mast and the shrouds, if 2.

There was a guy who did this on a 40ft catamaran in new zealand in the 90's

Reportedly the wind turbine was 5 meter (16 ft) diameter, variable pitch, and the propeller in the water 1.5 meter (5ft) also variable pitch.

That is correct: 5ft diameter variable pitch propeller on a 40ft catamaran in the 90's, not some tiny 16 inch prop like what you see on most boats. The man was well ahead of his time.

There was no electricity, the power transfered through gears and a vertical shaft, so much higher efficiency. It reportedly could go 10 knots straight into 20 knots of wind!



It only goes half the wind speed on the wind turbine, so in light winds with a deck of walkable solar a motor could drive the same prop and ensure cruising speed nearly all of the time as you could easily fast-charge the battery in stronger winds. A clutch could decouple things for extreme battery charging at anchor. No problem to run a heatpump from this, stay warm in winter! With 2kw at only 15 knots of wind (16kw at 30 knots, 600W at 10 knots) the energy is substantial.

[Mirage35]

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

There was a guy who did this on a 40ft catamaran in new zealand in the 90's

Reportedly the wind turbine was 5 meter (16 ft) diameter, variable pitch, and the propeller in the water 1.5 meter (5ft) also variable pitch.

That is correct: 5ft diameter variable pitch propeller on a 40ft catamaran in the 90's, not some tiny 16 inch prop like what you see on most boats. The man was well ahead of his time.

There was no electricity, the power transfered through gears and a vertical shaft, so much higher efficiency. It reportedly could go 10 knots straight into 20 knots of wind!



It only goes half the wind speed on the wind turbine, so in light winds with a deck of walkable solar a motor could drive the same prop and ensure cruising speed nearly all of the time as you could easily fast-charge the battery in stronger winds. A clutch could decouple things for extreme battery charging at anchor. No problem to run a heatpump from this, stay warm in winter! With 2kw at only 15 knots of wind (16kw at 30 knots, 600W at 10 knots) the energy is substantial.

Okay, trying to get my head around this one, it sounds way too much like a perpetual motion machine. The faster you go the more apparent wind the turbine sees, so the faster you go ...

[S/V Adeline]

Originally Posted by Mauruuru

On the other hand with generator it has better range than the standard ic engineBut hey heres the goid news don’t like it, don’t do it.
Won’t keep the rest of us from making improvements.

If one already has a suitable generator, that becomes a viable, just more expensive option.

[S/V Adeline]

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

There was a guy who did this on a 40ft catamaran in new zealand in the 90's

Reportedly the wind turbine was 5 meter (16 ft) diameter, variable pitch, and the propeller in the water 1.5 meter (5ft) also variable pitch.

That is correct: 5ft diameter variable pitch propeller on a 40ft catamaran in the 90's, not some tiny 16 inch prop like what you see on most boats. The man was well ahead of his time.

There was no electricity, the power transfered through gears and a vertical shaft, so much higher efficiency. It reportedly could go 10 knots straight into 20 knots of wind!



It only goes half the wind speed on the wind turbine, so in light winds with a deck of walkable solar a motor could drive the same prop and ensure cruising speed nearly all of the time as you could easily fast-charge the battery in stronger winds. A clutch could decouple things for extreme battery charging at anchor. No problem to run a heatpump from this, stay warm in winter! With 2kw at only 15 knots of wind (16kw at 30 knots, 600W at 10 knots) the energy is substantial.

Sounds fascinating, but not very practical for a sailing vessel (to actually use sails)
If anyone has a link to s similar setup, I would love to research it.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by S/V Adeline

If one already has a suitable generator, that becomes a viable, just more expensive option.

Just not a very efficient one . Burning diesel to make electricity to charge batteries to run an electric motor . Why not just run the diesel for propulsion.

Or alternatively they do make a dual power system .

Seems like the best option if you are dead set on spending money for electric.

[S/V Adeline]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Just not a very efficient one . Burning diesel to make electricity to charge batteries to run an electric motor . Why not just run the diesel for propulsion.

Or alternatively they do make a dual power system .

Seems like the best option if you are dead set on spending money for electric.

I was thinking the generator powering the motor, if that is possible?

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by S/V Adeline

I was thinking the generator powering the motor, if that is possible?

Yes it is but still same thing burning diesel to make electricity to properly the boat .

[S/V Adeline]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Yes it is but still same thing burning diesel to make electricity to properly the boat .

I don't have any problems burning diesel! When we were searching for our boat, we looked long and hard at a couple electric motor sailboats. Almost purchased one, but in the end decided it was too small for our needs. The limited range of the battery system could be eliminated is a generator was available *if a situation required it*.
Our home bay (Mobile, AL, USA) was roughly 30 miles top to bottom. Prevailing winds blow you out of the bay, usually with little issue. Those same winds have you beating to windward all day sometimes trying to get back home. Getting up at 3:15am for work Monday, reliable constant power is required to get home at a reasonable time. Regardless of what the many retired quatrogazillianairs on this forum preach, schedules are mandatory for most boaters. I personally am sick and tired of the "if you can't afford to wait, you shouldn't have a sailboat" mentality. That is what the iron genoa is for.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by S/V Adeline

I don't have any problems burning diesel! When we were searching for our boat, we looked long and hard at a couple electric motor sailboats. Almost purchased one, but in the end decided it was too small for our needs. The limited range of the battery system could be eliminated is a generator was available *if a situation required it*.
Our home bay (Mobile, AL, USA) was roughly 30 miles top to bottom. Prevailing winds blow you out of the bay, usually with little issue. Those same winds have you beating to windward all day sometimes trying to get back home. Getting up at 3:15am for work Monday, reliable constant power is required to get home at a reasonable time. Regardless of what the many retired quatrogazillianairs on this forum preach, schedules are mandatory for most boaters. I personally am sick and tired of the "if you can't afford to wait, you shouldn't have a sailboat" mentality. That is what the iron genoa is for.

Agreed .
I know about mobile bay . Family used to sail out of Port Aransas all over the gulf a couple decades ago.

[Q Xopa]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Just not a very efficient one . Burning diesel to make electricity to charge batteries to run an electric motor . Why not just run the diesel for propulsion.

Or alternatively they do make a dual power system .

Seems like the best option if you are dead set on spending money for electric.

Exactly, 'parallel' hybrid. Most people are talking about 'series' hybrid when talking Electric.

As with any Parallel configurations, by very definition, there is built in redundancy with 2 seperate load paths. You could even combine both and get an extra short burst.

Of course they are extra expense and complexity, but also extra redundancy and capability.

I reckon you could have the best of both worlds. Sustained long range cruising using the diesel. But slipping the dock or mooring without having to warm up the diesel.

Even if you get a blocked fuel filter, you can simply switch to the elec motor and get another 20mins, or whatever size batt you got, in a better place.

But what I find most attractive about this concept is an inbuilt generator.

With a regular Series hybrid if your motor, elec connections, controller etc are not functioning no mechanical propulsion can occur.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Q Xopa

Exactly, 'parallel' hybrid. Most people are talking about 'series' hybrid when talking Electric.

As with any Parallel configurations, by very definition, there is built in redundancy with 2 seperate load paths. You could even combine both and get an extra short burst.

Of course they are extra expense and complexity, but also extra redundancy and capability.

I reckon you could have the best of both worlds. Sustained long range cruising using the diesel. But slipping the dock or mooring without having to warm up the diesel.

Even if you get a blocked fuel filter, you can simply switch to the elec motor and get another 20mins, or whatever size batt you got, in a better place.

.

Or more like having that 20 or 30 minutes of electric to correct the problem with the diesel.