Sail boat engine choice - electric or diesel

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

In 3 years I have only seen one black cruiser here and his sails were up in and out of the harbor. It's possible to sail in out of of the harbor in most any conditions but it's rare that people do this. The population in this county and state being 25% black, it is astonishing that I only saw one person in 3 years.



After visiting south africa where only 4% of the population is white, but the yacht clubs are exclusively white, and they described blacks as "monkeys" who shouldn't be allowed to ride buses because they "didn't pay for them" and hearing australian cruisers refer to the "abos" as animals, and then hearing from people with boats that cost hundreds of times what mine did talk about how they don't allow black people on board: it is clear that many cruisers are racist. I think far more than the general population in most places. This is a fact I can bear witness to. So it is no surprise they would defend other immoral practices such as diesel power as well.


I have taken black people sailing from one island to the next even one country to the next in several different countries multiple times more than a dozen, and I remember they sure didn't complain having 6 people and 2 dogs on alexandra when the wind died in tropical heat and I had nowhere for them to sit out of the shade and no telling how long it would take: they had patience. These people had no engines of any kind in their lives, they had only at most 100 watt of solar per family (many had none) and they produced all of the food they ate. They told me they didn't like the bigger boats and most foreigners especially australians because they are mostly greedy and selfish people who come and do bad things like pay their chief to drink the blood of the girls in the village: their words not mine. Then I told an australian anchored there about it and he said they don't really know how to grow things very well.

Sean why are you tryng to turn a potentially good topic into a political statement .

The forum rules exist for a reason.

[carstendenmark]

Sean, could you please do me a favour ? Make a separate thread.
This thread is about the choice of diesel and electric engines.

[Q Xopa]

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

Thanks, I wrote it for people like you And also the thread seems to die down without my retorts. I hope it's entertaining to everyone at least.

If you want to keep your diesel and do right: fine but you need to run it on vegetable oil which you can buy almost anywhere and it's easy to do and all of you can easily afford it. If you scroll up, a typical cruiser only needs 50 gallons a year to not really change their habits much. I don't think this cost much or is a lot to ask.

The problem is, you don't want to spend just a little more, or exert the physical effort of sailing more. Mostly you just don't want to exert the mental effort of sailing more which is a sad truth I witness on a daily basis.

Waiting for wind is not the end of boating, it would just be the end of boating as we know it for many. This would be a good thing and it would benefit most of the 7 billion people in the world. It would benefit the boaters too as they would have a higher level of skill as they did in the past. Schedules are self-imposed and not an excuse to do wrong. Having a family is great for you, but not an excuse to harm others. I have several health problems I am not "so lucky" as you may think and some of these problems are a result of polluters.

For those who want someone to tell them what motor to use, what batteries and range it will have: it's up to you to figure this out and share the experience, not to wait around until you are guided on what decisions to make. I try to offer my own experience proving high-aspect ratio large diameter propellers can cut power consumption of typical electric drives such as oceanvolt roughly in half, but a lot of resistance because this fact makes inboards and sail drives impractical. If you want to keep an inboard, go ahead but consider just how much energy is wasted no matter how it's powered. Maybe inboards are useful in harbors, emergencies or as a backup but it's not really sensible to use when more efficient methods are possible.

My computers are all several years old and donated to me. My sails have always been very old and many salvaged from dumpsters. My first boat built in 1973 was recycled, my second boat built in 1973. There is a level of consumption the world can sustain on a long term basis and a level it can't. This same flawed argument of (you use a computer so you are the same as anyone who consumes excessive amounts of fuel) is somehow still repeated but it is an INVALID argument because my level of consumption is a tiny fraction of that and I continue to strive to reduce it and provide information on how to it's possible. Just this year I am cooking only with solar and eliminated the need to burn wood all summer. The people making these arguments are not trying to reduce but are instead failing to justify their over-consumption which is a clear difference.

slavery was immoral to the slaves and unfortunately was never made right even to this day. the climate crisis is an issue for many more than slavery ever was, it reaches everyone and it is economically and morally an even greater issue.

When I admitted my guilt, it was a little tongue in cheek. Of course like all of us I am. But life seldom being black and white there are lots of in between shades of grayness of guilt. Im pretty confident the guiliest of us dont admit, probably arent even aware.

But I see you have made a number of assumptions (you know what they say about assuming) about me, and everyone else on here. I would assume that the 'average' on here is a wide spectrum. Almost sounds a bit prejudgmental. Which is pretty much what you are accusing a lot of us of.

But just so you dont need to assume about me completely, I have spent way too much money, especially according to many on here, actually doing a lot of what you are describing, hence my interest in this subject. I guess that makes me an overprivelledged capilist bla bla- guilty. Well I have and am still working for that indulgence.

Anyway Im not willing to comment to all the people that would come on here and tell me, it wont work, its stupid waste of money, bla bla. Im still working on it, but so far I am happy with the way it is coming together.

But just a few details to address your comments about me being just the type of guilty unkowing, uncarring person-
Big props, fully agree, and I like what you are doing. I have gone from my old 17" to a 22" prop. Basically the largest I can fit. As you say inboards have limitations.

Elec propulsion. I have recently, mostly done a Parallel hybrid install. A work in progress. It has, is taken a fair amount of time, effort and not to mention money.

I like clean anchoages as much as any of us. Im keen to do my bit (maybe not all) to help with this.

However my motivation is to reduce my ongoing costs to sustain my lifestyle. I am happy to spend more now, while Im still working, upfront to cut my ongoing costs going forward.

To me it is an investment in my future. I have tried to reduce my diesel dependance by getting a light air drifter, feathering prop, etc. I also anticipate further reducing diesel use using the elec motor for short distance stuff like off the mooring etc.

Your comments about Slavery, Environment, racisim etc, while I dont disagree with generally, seem a little off the topic of this thread. Maybe this is not the most appropriate place to discuss these?

Keep up the good work on increasing efficiency and Elec motor propulsion.

[Shaneesprit]

I am sorry but all boat owners are evil by the logic in this forum, except those that sail on bamboo using cotton sails,
The rest of use have a huge chunk of floating plastic with, batteries- made of plastic and Acid with precious metals dug out of mines with huge environmental impact.
Don’t claim that you have batteries so you are superior to a Diesel engine owner, that’s just the thought of the decade, pretty soon your going to be the evil one when the battery disposal scandal starts in 10 years.
So far in my 46 years, I struggle to think of a single change for environmental reasons that didn’t back fire!
Any thoughts of ones that didn’t?
I have a long list that really did

[Dooglas]

Originally Posted by Shaneesprit

So far in my 46 years, I struggle to think of a single change for environmental reasons that didn’t back fire! Any thoughts of ones that didn’t?

I grew up in Western Oregon near the Columbia River. As a child I had never seen a bald eagle except in a zoo, and I had never seen a pelican period. I still live in the same area today. After the DDT ban, bald eagles have become common here again and every so often I see one soaring over my house. Nesting ospreys are also a common sight along the Columbia and Willamette Rivers now. When I visit the coast an hour West of my home, I see brown pelicans much of the year. It still amazes me that such a large change could have been brought about in a few decades.

[Jim Cate]

So far in my 46 years, I struggle to think of a single change for environmental reasons that didn’t back fire!
Any thoughts of ones that didn’t?

Well, during the couple of decades that I sailed in SF Bay I saw the water quality improve enormously. I doubt if that happened by chance! And I've read similar things about the Hudson River in NY, but no personal knowledge.

I reckon that there are more such examples, and that your pessimistic view is, well, pessimistic! Not to deny that some efforts have indeed gone agley...

Jim

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Dooglas

I grew up in Western Oregon near the Columbia River. As a child I had never seen a bald eagle except in a zoo, and I had never seen a pelican period. I still live in the same area today. After the DDT ban, bald eagles have become common here again and every so often I see one soaring over my house. Nesting ospreys are also a common sight along the Columbia and Willamette Rivers now. When I visit the coast an hour West of my home, I see brown pelicans much of the year. It still amazes me that such a large change could have been brought about in a few decades.

After ddt malaria is making a real come back.

[Dooglas]

Originally Posted by newhaul

After ddt malaria is making a real come back.

B*llsh*t. I spent a year in a malarial area in the 1960s and DDT did not solve our problems with malaria. And the question with any action is - does the good outweigh the bad. Well, did it?

And actually, malaria has been substantially controlled in most areas. It has become a disease of areas of extreme poverty. So what you really just said, is that extreme poverty is increasing in some areas - such as sub-Saharan Africa.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Dooglas

B*llsh*t. I spent a year in a malarial area in the 1960s and DDT did not solve our problems with malaria. And the question with any action is - does the good outweigh the bad. Will, did it?

Not really do your research. I remember eagles along the Willamette river when I was a kid just as long as you got the hell out of Portland. ( Late1970's to to early 1980''s)
Uncle owned the happy rock moorage. And my dad told of them all along that stretch since he got there at the end of the war.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Dooglas

B*llsh*t. I spent a year in a malarial area in the 1960s and DDT did not solve our problems with malaria. And the question with any action is - does the good outweigh the bad. Well, did it?

And actually, malaria has been substantially controlled in most areas. It has become a disease of areas of extreme poverty. So what you really just said, is that extreme poverty is increasing in some areas - such as sub-Saharan Africa.

You added to your post after I replied. You really do believe the propaganda don't ya .
Has nothing to do with increases in the poverty rate .

[seandepagnier]

I could have used my electric motor today as the batteries were full hours before the sun set, but instead I preferred to scull so that when I dumped a cold bucket of rain water on my head afterward it felt good and not cold. Also I greased the oarlock which improved efficiency.


It seems electric motors can't heat water like diesel engines do, but sculling oar has this advantage with the additional benefit of exercise that you won't get with your electric motor. Of course diesel's don't get this hot water for free like sculling oar does because of the pollution they cost.

Using an existing boat is less impact than building a new one even if the new one is wood. Using existing dacron sails from the 70's is less than new sails from cotton.



Using an existing diesel engine is less impact than a new electric motor provided you do not ever fill the tank with new diesel.

[Dooglas]

Originally Posted by newhaul

You added to your post after I replied. You really do believe the propaganda don't ya .
Has nothing to do with increases in the poverty rate .

The Centers for Disease Control believe so. What are your qualifications on this subject?

For that matter, what are your qualifications on telling me to do more research about whether I saw bald eagles as a child in Western Oregon? I didn't. What research do you suggest I do - another childhood? (and I didn't grow up in Portland BTW)

[mcarthur]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Just not a very efficient one . Burning diesel to make electricity to charge batteries to run an electric motor . Why not just run the diesel for propulsion.

Or alternatively they do make a dual power system .

Seems like the best option if you are dead set on spending money for electric.

Ooo - can you say where you got those images? I'm interested if they have a clutch in there for the electric or not. The cost for such a clutch seems high from the quotes I've had, so I was intending just to run it without (yes, the gearbox model can freewheel!).

[seandepagnier]

Originally Posted by carstendenmark

Sean, could you please do me a favour ? Make a separate thread.
This thread is about the choice of diesel and electric engines.

then what of those discussing eagles?


The issues are all intertwined. The fact that so many cruisers have such low moral values explains their decision to continue to support the use of diesel power.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

I could have used my electric motor today as the batteries were full hours before the sun set, but instead I preferred to scull so that when I dumped a cold bucket of rain water on my head afterward it felt good and not cold. Also I greased the oarlock which improved efficiency.


It seems electric motors can't heat water like diesel engines do, but sculling oar has this advantage with the additional benefit of exercise that you won't get with your electric motor. Of course diesel's don't get this hot water for free like sculling oar does because of the pollution they cost.

Using an existing boat is less impact than building a new one even if the new one is wood. Using existing dacron sails from the 70's is less than new sails from cotton.



Using an existing diesel engine is less impact than a new electric motor provided you do not ever fill the tank with new diesel.

Glad you are happy with your choices. let me know how it goes in 20 years when I'm still running the same diesel engine in my boat . And your body says ouch when getting out of the berth like mine does .
Your soap box ain't working makes me want to go out and fire up my big old 500 Cummins red head or better yet my 8-71 Detroit that I used to have .