Sail boat engine choice - electric or diesel

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by mcarthur

Ooo - can you say where you got those images? I'm interested if they have a clutch in there for the electric or not. The cost for such a clutch seems high from the quotes I've had, so I was intending just to run it without (yes, the gearbox model can freewheel!).

Did a bit of research a couple years ago for a customer that was considering that type of installation till he saw the price .
Iirc it was a company out of England.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by mcarthur

Ooo - can you say where you got those images? I'm interested if they have a clutch in there for the electric or not. The cost for such a clutch seems high from the quotes I've had, so I was intending just to run it without (yes, the gearbox model can freewheel!).

Dug out the paperwork and here is their website.
https://www.krahwinkel-kpm.de/

[MichaelPrichard]

Originally Posted by Shaneesprit

Battery power does not even make sense in a car yet, well it does if you live in a city and I am 100% behind the thoughtful use of batteries. In the city with air pollution it’s a no brainier, however once you want to travel a distance it no longer stacks up, so while you are buying your batteries the next step has already began, sell you electric cars and then replace them all in 5 to 10 years instead of 15- 20 years with a combustion engine, then Batteries will be the new diesel and be considered very dirty and bad for the environment and how could you, and we will move to hydrogen.
The hydrogen already exists, vehicles are already using it, but like the batteries there is no infrastructure for charging.

This scenario is just as valid if inverted; IC engine cars make amazing long distance cruisers, but bring them into a city and they "no longer stack up". Electric cars are far superior with zero warm up time, fully charged in the morning, no trips to gas stations, no excessive engine wear due to frequent short trips that fail to heat the block up causing pre-mature carbonizing/wear/pollution, silent running, pre-warmed in winter/pre-cooled in summer, etc (the list is very long). Average commute in the US is 16 miles, but even extreme commutes are usually less than 200 miles round trip per day, well within the range of most electrics offered today. With much lower operating costs, you can easily afford to rent a long range IC car the half dozen times a year you might take a long trip. It's a difficult scenario for many of us (myself included) to break through the range anxiety that comes from the known long distance limitations of electrics, but every one of the dozens of friends of mine that have gone electric wonder why they didn't do it sooner and none has expressed any frustrations or regrets, and none have (thus far) switched back to an IC car.

I find hydrogen fuel cell cars a fascinating direction and hope for some expansion there, but they're fundamentally just electric cars with a fuel cell strapped on to provide a more "gas like" fueling experience which I see as a short term bridge to pure electric since the ability to "fuel up" at home with a large EV battery is really one of the ultimate conveniences. With the rapidly advancing battery tech already out there, I fear it's market window may be closing, but perhaps some form of chemical storage -> fuel cell -> electric propulsion will emerge that will allow full IC replacement for those that need regular long distance travel.

These technologies needn't be either/or; the greater variety there is, the better the optimization for each user's needs, ideally while lowering natural resource use and pollution. With 80% of driver's actual needs (probably higher) now met by pure EVs, we just need a wider array of them to expand their appeal beyond the technical.

Apologies for the thread digression, but this same basic principle is at play in the electric vs. diesel debate; many sailors needs can now be met by electric propulsion. There is hardly a market for it yet and the boat market is so much smaller with much slower turnover, but many of us enjoy the bleeding edge, especially as it turns into the new normal. I don't know how long this will take, but I don't think 20 years will be required to convert much of the new sailboat fleet into some form of electric propulsion. And I'm especially intrigued by the possibilities of an equally quick push toward large props as a really big efficiency advance as this does feel like thoroughly under-explored territory.

In 1984 when I entered college, there was basically no wind or solar power generated in the US and all the "experts" forecast that this would remain true for at least another 100 years while nuclear and coal would continue to expand. Today, 17% of US electricity comes from renewables (7.7% wind, 2% solar, 6.6% hydro) displacing mostly coal and nuclear. Iowa generates 55% of it's power from wind, CA 30% from solar and even MA generates 26% from solar (hardly the sunniest state). That's pretty good for 36 years. Let's hope we're just seeing the tip of the iceberg for renewable "Moore's Law"

[waterman46]

Originally Posted by newhaul

After ddt malaria is making a real come back.

Oh, environmentalism is great! We saved the mosquito from extinction!


OK, just joking. One additional success story is the pelican. On CA coast, DDT was causing the eggs to be too fragile and the pelican population plunging. Many years later after DDT was limited, the gracefully awkward, amusing and amazing big bird is everywhere.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by MichaelPrichard

This scenario is just as valid if inverted; IC engine cars make amazing long distance cruisers, but bring them into a city and they "no longer stack up". Electric cars are far superior with zero warm up time, fully charged in the morning, no trips to gas stations, no excessive engine wear due to frequent short trips that fail to heat the block up causing pre-mature carbonizing/wear/pollution, silent running, pre-warmed in winter/pre-cooled in summer, etc (the list is very long). Average commute in the US is 16 miles, but even extreme commutes are usually less than 200 miles round trip per day, well within the range of most electrics offered today. With much lower operating costs, you can easily afford to rent a long range IC car the half dozen times a year you might take a long trip. It's a difficult scenario for many of us (myself included) to break through the range anxiety that comes from the known long distance limitations of electrics, but every one of the dozens of friends of mine that have gone electric wonder why they didn't do it sooner and none has expressed any frustrations or regrets, and none have (thus far) switched back to an IC car.

I find hydrogen fuel cell cars a fascinating direction and hope for some expansion there, but they're fundamentally just electric cars with a fuel cell strapped on to provide a more "gas like" fueling experience which I see as a short term bridge to pure electric since the ability to "fuel up" at home with a large EV battery is really one of the ultimate conveniences. With the rapidly advancing battery tech already out there, I fear it's market window may be closing, but perhaps some form of chemical storage -> fuel cell -> electric propulsion will emerge that will allow full IC replacement for those that need regular long distance travel.

These technologies needn't be either/or; the greater variety there is, the better the optimization for each user's needs, ideally while lowering natural resource use and pollution. With 80% of driver's actual needs (probably higher) now met by pure EVs, we just need a wider array of them to expand their appeal beyond the technical.

Apologies for the thread digression, but this same basic principle is at play in the electric vs. diesel debate; many sailors needs can now be met by electric propulsion. There is hardly a market for it yet and the boat market is so much smaller with much slower turnover, but many of us enjoy the bleeding edge, especially as it turns into the new normal. I don't know how long this will take, but I don't think 20 years will be required to convert much of the new sailboat fleet into some form of electric propulsion. And I'm especially intrigued by the possibilities of an equally quick push toward large props as a really big efficiency advance as this does feel like thoroughly under-explored territory.

In 1984 when I entered college, there was basically no wind or solar power generated in the US and all the "experts" forecast that this would remain true for at least another 100 years while nuclear and coal would continue to expand. Today, 17% of US electricity comes from renewables (7.7% wind, 2% solar, 6.6% hydro) displacing mostly coal and nuclear. Iowa generates 55% of it's power from wind, CA 30% from solar and even MA generates 26% from solar (hardly the sunniest state). That's pretty good for 36 years. Let's hope we're just seeing the tip of the iceberg for renewable "Moore's Law"

Cut the energy subsidy for all of it . And solar and wind would loose . There would be no wind or solar power.

And if you get rid of the usage mandates prices will come back down .
Btw electric cars are not as eco friendly as they try to tell you look at everything cradle to grave. And don't forget how are you charging it and where does that power come from ?
How is it produced ? What's the cradle to grave there ? Electric is great to reduce pollution in a city but it doesn't reduce pollution on a planetary scale .

[waterman46]

Originally Posted by MichaelPrichard

This scenario is just as valid if inverted; IC engine cars make amazing long distance cruisers, but bring them into a city and they "no longer stack up". Electric cars are far superior with zero warm up time, fully charged in the morning, no trips to gas stations, no excessive engine wear due to frequent short trips that fail to heat the block up causing pre-mature carbonizing/wear/pollution, silent running, pre-warmed in winter/pre-cooled in summer, etc (the list is very long). Average commute in the US is 16 miles, but even extreme commutes are usually less than 200 miles round trip per day, well within the range of most electrics offered today. With much lower operating costs, you can easily afford to rent a long range IC car the half dozen times a year you might take a long trip. It's a difficult scenario for many of us (myself included) to break through the range anxiety that comes from the known long distance limitations of electrics, but every one of the dozens of friends of mine that have gone electric wonder why they didn't do it sooner and none has expressed any frustrations or regrets, and none have (thus far) switched back to an IC car.

I find hydrogen fuel cell cars a fascinating direction and hope for some expansion there, but they're fundamentally just electric cars with a fuel cell strapped on to provide a more "gas like" fueling experience which I see as a short term bridge to pure electric since the ability to "fuel up" at home with a large EV battery is really one of the ultimate conveniences. With the rapidly advancing battery tech already out there, I fear it's market window may be closing, but perhaps some form of chemical storage -> fuel cell -> electric propulsion will emerge that will allow full IC replacement for those that need regular long distance travel.

These technologies needn't be either/or; the greater variety there is, the better the optimization for each user's needs, ideally while lowering natural resource use and pollution. With 80% of driver's actual needs (probably higher) now met by pure EVs, we just need a wider array of them to expand their appeal beyond the technical.

Apologies for the thread digression, but this same basic principle is at play in the electric vs. diesel debate; many sailors needs can now be met by electric propulsion. There is hardly a market for it yet and the boat market is so much smaller with much slower turnover, but many of us enjoy the bleeding edge, especially as it turns into the new normal. I don't know how long this will take, but I don't think 20 years will be required to convert much of the new sailboat fleet into some form of electric propulsion. And I'm especially intrigued by the possibilities of an equally quick push toward large props as a really big efficiency advance as this does feel like thoroughly under-explored territory.

In 1984 when I entered college, there was basically no wind or solar power generated in the US and all the "experts" forecast that this would remain true for at least another 100 years while nuclear and coal would continue to expand. Today, 17% of US electricity comes from renewables (7.7% wind, 2% solar, 6.6% hydro) displacing mostly coal and nuclear. Iowa generates 55% of it's power from wind, CA 30% from solar and even MA generates 26% from solar (hardly the sunniest state). That's pretty good for 36 years. Let's hope we're just seeing the tip of the iceberg for renewable "Moore's Law"

Can't compare long range cruising yachts to cars in any way. Almost nobody commutes to a daily job or goes on a shopping trip in a yacht.

BTW, CA Gov. Newsome just issued an executive order to ban the sale of IC engine cars here after 2035.
We may see the type of boats designed for daysailing all go electrical, and I think that's a good thing. But for long distance cruising, other than the purists who will sail everywhere no matter how much time and discomfort, maybe even danger is involved, electric power will not be a valid substitute for diesel auxiliary.

[AKA-None]

When we talk about subsidies for alternative power, yes we can see them. But oil has subsidies also and quite often those costs are hidden.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by AKA-None

When we talk about subsidies for alternative power, yes we can see them. But oil has subsidies also and quite often those costs are hidden.

They are all shown on the chart i posted .

[MichaelPrichard]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Cut the energy subsidy for all of it . And solar and wind would loose . There would be no wind or solar power.

And if you get rid of the usage mandates prices will come back down .
Btw electric cars are not as eco friendly as they try to tell you look at everything cradle to grave. And don't forget how are you charging it and where does that power come from ?
How is it produced ? What's the cradle to grave there ? Electric is great to reduce pollution in a city but it doesn't reduce pollution on a planetary scale .

According to the US EIA, this is incorrect.

https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/aeo/pdf...generation.pdf

To summarize, current Levelized Cost of Energy in $/megawatt-hour forecast for generation coming online in 2022:

Nuclear: $93
Solar PV: $63
Onshore wind: $59
Offshore wind: $138
Hydroelectric: $62

and I don't believe that takes into account that no private insurer will insure any nuclear facilities, creating the worst form of subsidy where we (the people) assume all the burdens of risk. Nor does this table include costs born as a result of nuclear disasters like 3-mile island, Chernoble and Fukushima.

Regarding lifecycle costs, this is a common misconception which has been put to bed by a few studies, here's a recent one:

https://thedriven.io/2020/04/27/life...lled-vehicles/ (summary image below)

and yearly operating costs are half that of ICE cars:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcm.../#310856803f97

Regardless, even if they matched the energy consumption/pollution of gas cars, there would be reasons many would still prefer them. And statements like "electric power will not be a valid substitute for diesel auxiliary." (for long distance cruising) seem awfully presumptive. As indicated before, few (even EV enthusiasts) could've predicted Tesla's success, and I'm hoping a similar wave will usher in unpredicted technological leaps in sailing auxiliaries as well. I would think everyone would be excited about this, even if less sanguine about how fast it might emerge.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by MichaelPrichard

According to the US EIA, this is incorrect.

https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/aeo/pdf...generation.pdf

To summarize, current Levelized Cost of Energy in $/megawatt-hour forecast for generation coming online in 2022:

Nuclear: $93
Solar PV: $63
Onshore wind: $59
Offshore wind: $138
Hydroelectric: $62

and I don't believe that takes into account that no private insurer will insure any nuclear facilities, creating the worst form of subsidy where we (the people) assume all the burdens of risk. Nor does this table include costs born as a result of nuclear disasters like 3-mile island, Chernoble and Fukushima.

Regarding lifecycle costs, this is a common misconception which has been put to bed by a few studies, here's a recent one:

https://thedriven.io/2020/04/27/life...lled-vehicles/ (summary image below)

and yearly operating costs are half that of ICE cars:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcm.../#310856803f97

Regardless, even if they matched the energy consumption/pollution of gas cars, there would be reasons many would still prefer them. And statements like "electric power will not be a valid substitute for diesel auxiliary." (for long distance cruising) seem awfully presumptive. As indicated before, few (even EV enthusiasts) could've predicted Tesla's success, and I'm hoping a similar wave will usher in unpredicted technological leaps in sailing auxiliaries as well. I would think everyone would be excited about this, even if less sanguine about how fast it might emerge.

This article and study it is derived from says the opposite of your first driven article And is more current as well.
https://thedriven.io/2020/06/28/plug...-report-finds/

Now how many electric cars are on the road that are 10 years old and still using the original battery bank ? How many ice cars using original engine ?
I gurantee the numbers are really telling which is better in the long term cost wise.
But we are way off of the topic of the thread.

Full disclosure I am running 250 ah lfp house bank a westerbeke w10two auxiliary with what will eventually have a 75amp alternator to charge the bank when needed. Also 400 Watts solar and 400 in wind.
I also have a 1,000 watt portable generator to run the 50 amp battery charger as needed.

[MichaelPrichard]

Originally Posted by newhaul

This article and study it is derived from says the opposite of your first driven article And is more current as well.
https://thedriven.io/2020/06/28/plug...-report-finds/

Interesting. That is an article specifically talking about plug-in hybrids, not pure EVs or even regular hybrids, but as an owner of a Chevy Volt, I'm definitely disappointed by this data. Truth be told, I'm certainly part of the problem as I'm not able to charge my battery often, and thus it makes a mediocre hybrid getting significantly worse gas milage than our Prius (36mpg vs 44mpg) and the Prius has 230k miles on it vs. only ~68k on the Volt.

Originally Posted by newhaul

Now how many electric cars are on the road that are 10 years old and still using the original battery bank ? How many ice cars using original engine ?
I gurantee the numbers are really telling which is better in the long term cost wise.
But we are way off of the topic of the thread.

Agreed, way off topic, but just as a quick counter (albeit non-authoritative) I've got a couple friends with original 2011 model year Teslas that are still enjoying >85% battery performance, and I've found that most Taxis, Uber and Lyft drivers have been flocking to standard hybrids as they can regularly put 350k-500k miles on them with no battery replacement (or engines), and the cars don't have transmissions, all while enjoying 50-100% better milage than an equivalent ICE car, few of which would make it that far without a major repair. Preliminary long term life cycle data on older Tesla packs is proving pretty impressive with some estimates showing potential life spans as long as 25 years. Tesla warrantees their long range packs for 8 years, or 120,000 miles, at 70% of original charge and most cars are exceeding that by a lot. I don't think it's quite clear that ICE cars don't need a transmission or engine replacement as frequently as an EV might need a battery, but I haven't researched that thoroughly.

Originally Posted by newhaul

Full disclosure I am running 250 ah lfp house bank a westerbeke w10two auxiliary with what will eventually have a 75amp alternator to charge the bank when needed. Also 400 Watts solar and 400 in wind.
I also have a 1,000 watt portable generator to run the 50 amp battery charger as needed.

Full disclosure on my end, I am in the middle of my 5th cross country drive (Boston - SF) in my converted 2003 Yukon XL with Duramax 6.6l diesel which I absolutely love... as I did my previous Yanmars, but in their case, as I've stated in other threads, circumstances made conversion to EV within reach compared to replacement of trashed sail drives and restoration of 25 year old diesels. Do I occasionally miss the ability to just crank up the diesels with a full tank of 40gal in our FP Athena 38ft catamaran and cruise effortlessly at 6-7knots without worrying about how far I could go? I'd be a hypocrite if I said "no"; but there are many joys that have come from the POD drives/Tesla batts which at this point outweigh that trade-off for me, and I've been sailing so much more as a result of spending less time with diesel maintenance.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by newhaul

......

Your soap box ain't working makes me want to go out and fire up my big old 500 Cummins red head or better yet my 8-71 Detroit that I used to have .

His soap box doesn’t need to work on you, not everybody can be convinced to reconsider their situation let along stale steps to change it.

It doesn’t even need to work on very many people. If climate change is really occurring then over the long run his way will win out. And if not then he will always be seen as an eccentric.

[Booysen]

I believe they Uma have recently abandoned the Electric Motor and are returning to the more reliable Diesel! Check for yourself don’t believe me !

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by MichaelPrichard

Interesting. That is an article specifically talking about plug-in hybrids, not pure EVs or even regular hybrids, but as an owner of a Chevy Volt, I'm definitely disappointed by this data. Truth be told, I'm certainly part of the problem as I'm not able to charge my battery often, and thus it makes a mediocre hybrid getting significantly worse gas milage than our Prius (36mpg vs 44mpg) and the Prius has 230k miles on it vs. only ~68k on the Volt.



Agreed, way off topic, but just as a quick counter (albeit non-authoritative) I've got a couple friends with original 2011 model year Teslas that are still enjoying >85% battery performance, and I've found that most Taxis, Uber and Lyft drivers have been flocking to standard hybrids as they can regularly put 350k-500k miles on them with no battery replacement (or engines), and the cars don't have transmissions, all while enjoying 50-100% better milage than an equivalent ICE car, few of which would make it that far without a major repair. Preliminary long term life cycle data on older Tesla packs is proving pretty impressive with some estimates showing potential life spans as long as 25 years. Tesla warrantees their long range packs for 8 years, or 120,000 miles, at 70% of original charge and most cars are exceeding that by a lot. I don't think it's quite clear that ICE cars don't need a transmission or engine replacement as frequently as an EV might need a battery, but I haven't researched that thoroughly.



Full disclosure on my end, I am in the middle of my 5th cross country drive (Boston - SF) in my converted 2003 Yukon XL with Duramax 6.6l diesel which I absolutely love... as I did my previous Yanmars, but in their case, as I've stated in other threads, circumstances made conversion to EV within reach compared to replacement of trashed sail drives and restoration of 25 year old diesels. Do I occasionally miss the ability to just crank up the diesels with a full tank of 40gal in our FP Athena 38ft catamaran and cruise effortlessly at 6-7knots without worrying about how far I could go? I'd be a hypocrite if I said "no"; but there are many joys that have come from the POD drives/Tesla batts which at this point outweigh that trade-off for me, and I've been sailing so much more as a result of spending less time with diesel maintenance.

What maintance are you doing that takes more than about an hour a year on a diesel . ( Btw my westerbeke is basically 45 years old . Oil change takes about a half hour and tranny fluid every other year 15 minutes.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Adelie

His soap box doesn’t need to work on you, not everybody can be convinced to reconsider their situation let along stale steps to change it.

It doesn’t even need to work on very many people. If climate change is really occurring then over the long run his way will win out. And if not then he will always be seen as an eccentric.

I'm referring to his soapbox trying to make this a racist issue . It is nothing of the kind .

I would convert if they could gurantee I would have 8 hours of electric only propulsion at hull speed without running a generator. Without placing a ton and yes that's 2,000 pounds of batteries in my boat .
My diesel engine weighs 250 +/- pounds.