Sail boat engine choice - electric or diesel

[chrisr]

Originally Posted by Q Xopa

Cotton sails environmental, pfaaaa. Maybe you havent heard of the environmental impact growing cotton has. Huge water usage, moth killing poison sprayed every few days etc

no, no...you've got it wrong

you don't use cotton sails...the boat will be powered by the owners own sense of self-righteousness

cheers,

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by chrisr

no, no...you've got it wrong

you don't use cotton sails...the boat will be powered by the owners own sense of self-righteousness

cheers,

https://southpark.cc.com/video-clips...th-park-thanks

Your post reminds me of this video. Ha ha.

[chrisr]

Originally Posted by Chotu

https://southpark.cc.com/video-clips...th-park-thanks

Your post reminds me of this video. Ha ha.

good one

but i am actually more a simpsons kinda guy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvUItaradGE

cheers,

[seandepagnier]

Originally Posted by Cloroxbottle

Weather windows. Distances to motor from a berth to your sailing grounds. If you have a four mile motor from your slip to open water,

Why do you motor to open water? I raise my sails before untying the dock lines or raising anchor. You can back out of your berth with wind power by holding the boom out. Schooners are better at sailing backwards than other vessels apparently.

But I'm not prepared to go from a 175 mile range to a 30 mile range to do it.

First of all, 175 mile range is easily possible using lithium batteries on your boat. In fact, the range can be much higher because with solar input you end up with an unlimited range.

There are a few things you will need (pick a minimum of 2) to achieve this:
1) use lithium ion batteries (half the weight of lithium iron) and distribute them so they are safe (cannot be all crammed in one huge bank in one part of the boat)
2) use a 3-4ft diameter high aspect ratio propeller
3) motor at 3 knots or slower.
4) have a lot of solar panels and an actual high efficiency tow generator (not regen from the prop which is inefficient)

Since there is wind enough to sail 95% of the time you won't ever need to motor for 175 miles, but you acknowledged this already as no one ever can use this kind of range in normal cruising unless they are refusing to sail in cases where they easily could be. I'm not sure what the problem with 30 mile range is or how you calculated it, but it's already too much, and you could easily have much more.

We could run the numbers and I found for $7000 I could buy enough lithium ion to power my boat for 500 miles at 2 knots, or 250 miles at 3 knots and this is without any solar input. This battery would unfortunately weigh 400 pounds, and so I would not be really interested in having something so expensive and heavy but I think a lot of engines already weigh/cost about that much.

a good thing. But for long distance cruising, other than the purists who will sail everywhere no matter how much time and discomfort, maybe even danger is involved, electric power will not be a valid substitute for diesel auxiliary.

I have been on other people's boats a few times and was uncomfortable from the noise and fumes as well as embarrassment (cheating in a "race") when they used the engine. As far as danger: statistics prove that people with engine power are more likely to have boating accidents than those without. As for as not being a "valid" substitute, this can only be explained by people who don't want to use sails. I believe it's a mental block, there is no other explanation is there? Otherwise, why would someone choose to motor when the wind is perfect for sailing? I see this on a daily basis, with some boats motoring and other boats sailing in the same open water going the same direction at the same speed.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

There are a few things you will need (pick a minimum of 2) to achieve this:
1) use lithium ion batteries (half the weight of lithium iron) and distribute them so they are safe (cannot be all crammed in one huge bank in one part of the boat)

.

If you are advocating using any lithium chemestry other than lfp on a boat please stay away from any marina that I may ever enter .

[newhaul]

Most Marina's I have ever been in do not allow sailing to or from the dock . As well as everyone I have actually been moored in full time require an engine for emergency situation getting underway.

[TrentePieds]

Quote: "Why do you motor to open water?"

Did you really mean to ask that question? Here is the answer: I am a mono 30ft LOA, 9 foot beam, 5 tons displacement. In my home berth I have three feet of clear water aft of me twixt me and the next boat along. I have six feet of clear water ahead of me twixt me and the next boat along. I'm port side to in a fairway 40 feet wide and 400 feet long with a strong tide running athwart it, 'cept for the four slacks a day, each of about 15 minutes duration.

You want I should sail out? And in? And do my standard pirouette on the boat's pivot point to come to my assigned berth?

You can't be serious. If I tried that, I'd soon be on the carpet in the marina office. But perhaps you could come and show me how. In your boat, of course, since MY insurer would certainly refuse any liability claim arising from my trying to do anything so daft.

Perhaps there would be merit in your considering that other members of this forum have good and considered reason for doing what they are doing. Few of us are ignorant of the technicalities of electric propulsion afloat or ashore. Most of us are "green" to some degree. Few of us are ideologues. Fewer still are "True Believers". Most of us are pragmatists and competent seamen.

But you are welcome to roll your old electric chariot along as you see fit, of course.

TrentePieds

[seandepagnier]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Quote: "Why do you motor to open water?"

Did you really mean to ask that question? Here is the answer: I am a mono 30ft LOA, 9 foot beam, 5 tons displacement. In my home berth I have three feet of clear water aft of me twixt me and the next boat along. I have six feet of clear water ahead of me twixt me and the next boat along. I'm port side to in a fairway 40 feet wide and 400 feet long with a strong tide running athwart it, 'cept for the four slacks a day, each of about 15 minutes duration. ied.

So it's only 400 feet not 4 miles.



It's possible to tack a fairway 40ft wide, but you probably have never tried and think it's not possible. Here we have the ICW with many bridges. I have sailed along the ICW against the wind tacking the whole way and a few times tacking twice to make it under a bridge because the width was very narrow. This was never any problem for me or anyone else.

You want I should sail out? And in? And do my standard pirouette on the boat's pivot point to come to my assigned berth?

Yes.
1) It's a lot more interesting to watch
2) You will improve your skills and boat handling
3) It's entirely possible to do and will build your confidence.



With the right momentum, you can sail in, and drop the sails in time and coast right into where you want to go.

You can't be serious. If I tried that, I'd soon be on the carpet in the marina office. But perhaps you could come and show me how. In your boat, of course, since MY insurer would certainly refuse any liability claim arising from my trying to do anything so daft.

The carpet? I think you are afraid of failure when there is actually no risk involved. You are afraid of embarrassment? The real embarrassment is not even trying.


I don't have insurance and have never caused any damage. I came into dock today without using an engine as I have done hundreds of times. I have to pass within a few ft/inches of other boats. The key is to go slow enough and there is never any risk of damage. A lot of people with engines come in way too fast: if their engine failed to reverse they would cause damage that could have been completely avoided.

Perhaps there would be merit in your considering that other members of this forum have good and considered reason for doing what they are doing.

I have seen plenty of people sail in and out of docks and in marinas. Then the marina people complain about it because they wouldn't feel comfortable doing this because they have never tried to do it.

Imagine if people who have never used a bicycle decided it was a bad idea and no one should use one. This actually happened in a few miserable towns.

A lot of boats blew up from propane but never heard any blow from lithium batteries. If you don't like it, better not go to any marinas anywhere because all of the boats have laptops and cell phones with lithium ion.

I don't really care how you come into the marina as long as you aren't putting toxic fumes in the air and water. This directly negatively affects me and everyone else. So go ahead and use your sails, oars and/or electric motor, the distance/duration covered is minimal for batteries to supply. If you use diesel power in 2020 you are not green as you claim. It's so easy for you to just use vegetable oil which has significantly cleaner exhaust and I wouldn't mind that and the amount needed to reach your berth tiny.

[seandepagnier]

lithium batteries can be used in series/parallel combinations with each individual battery not much larger than what is in a laptop. As I stated before to do this correctly the cells need to be physically separated and distributed throughout the boat and ideally in fireproof containers with individual temperature cutoffs so that you can short any cell and not risk fire.



Saying lithium ion is dangerous on a boat is a misconception from people who stubbornly think lithium batteries should replace other batteries in the way they are mounted and the space they occupy on the boat. Similar to think that electric must compare to diesel powering the same type of inboard propeller and shaft which also makes no sense and was finally debunked in this thread.



I have seen a 3 different boats actually burn down from gasoline and propane.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

So it's only 400 feet not 4 miles.



It's possible to tack a fairway 40ft wide, but you probably have never tried and think it's not possible. Here we have the ICW with many bridges. I have sailed along the ICW against the wind tacking the whole way and a few times tacking twice to make it under a bridge because the width was very narrow. This was never any problem for me or anyone else.Yes.
1) It's a lot more interesting to watch
2) You will improve your skills and boat handling
3) It's entirely possible to do and will build your confidence.



With the right momentum, you can sail in, and drop the sails in time and coast right into where you want to go.

The carpet? I think you are afraid of failure when there is actually no risk involved. You are afraid of embarrassment? The real embarrassment is not even trying.


I don't have insurance and have never caused any damage. I came into dock today without using an engine as I have done hundreds of times. I have to pass within a few ft/inches of other boats. The key is to go slow enough and there is never any risk of damage. A lot of people with engines come in way too fast: if their engine failed to reverse they would cause damage that could have been completely avoided.

I have seen plenty of people sail in and out of docks and in marinas. Then the marina people complain about it because they wouldn't feel comfortable doing this because they have never tried to do it.

Imagine if people who have never used a bicycle decided it was a bad idea and no one should use one. This actually happened in a few miserable towns.

A lot of boats blew up from propane but never heard any blow from lithium batteries. If you don't like it, better not go to any marinas anywhere because all of the boats have laptops and cell phones with lithium ion.

I don't really care how you come into the marina as long as you aren't putting toxic fumes in the air and water. This directly negatively affects me and everyone else. So go ahead and use your sails, oars and/or electric motor, the distance/duration covered is minimal for batteries to supply. If you use diesel power in 2020 you are not green as you claim. It's so easy for you to just use vegetable oil which has significantly cleaner exhaust and I wouldn't mind that and the amount needed to reach your berth tiny.

You dont even consider that having liability insurance is a good idea ? Stay away from me then . You just proved you are inconsiderate and none to smart. All it takes is one scratch to a newer boat and your life would forever changed.
You are saying you would never go near me if i am burning diesel ? Then all the more reason to do it.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

lithium batteries can be used in series/parallel combinations with each individual battery not much larger than what is in a laptop. As I stated before to do this correctly the cells need to be physically separated and distributed throughout the boat and ideally in fireproof containers with individual temperature cutoffs so that you can short any cell and not risk fire.



Saying lithium ion is dangerous on a boat is a misconception from people who stubbornly think lithium batteries should replace other batteries in the way they are mounted and the space they occupy on the boat. Similar to think that electric must compare to diesel powering the same type of inboard propeller and shaft which also makes no sense and was finally debunked in this thread.



I have seen a 3 different boats actually burn down from gasoline and propane.

And i have seen hundreds of fires caused by just charging other lithium ion hemestry batteries . There is no place to safely go when your boat suddenly bursts into flames .

Ever hear of a cascade failure and thermal runaway? Please stay away from other peoples boats especially with your cavalier attitude toward insurance . Liability is to protect your assets as well as the other persons vessel .

[waterman46]

Sean, I don't have any problem with some of your ideas about using electric power instead of diesel, but only for boats that are daysailing or have very limited amenities. But you caused the thread to drift to a discussion of using sail power for all propulsion, even claiming that we should all be able to sail in and out of our slips. By that you imply that you realize electric power may often be unavailable even for the short return to the marina, after having needed to use the batteries for other reasons.

Unless one has an unusually rare berthing arrangement and a marina channel that is navigable under sail in all wind speeds and directions, and a lightweight boat that can be easily stopped or fended off, or an end tie, it is simply not possible to sail larger boats safely out of or into most slips in most marinas.

You have a trimaran, which cannot fit into any normal marina slip that was designed for monohull boats of the same length or even 15' longer. An end tie or a slip designed for a large powerboat is necessary. If we all had to sail into our slips, marina design would have to be much more open, and the cost per slip would at least double.

So, fewer of us would own boats, further reducing the environmental impact. A win-win, right?

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

So it's only 400 feet not 4 miles.

It's possible to tack a fairway 40ft wide, but you probably have never tried and think it's not possible. Here we have the ICW with many bridges. I have sailed along the ICW against the wind tacking the whole way and a few times tacking twice to make it under a bridge because the width was very narrow. This was never any problem for me or anyone else.Yes.
1) It's a lot more interesting to watch
2) You will improve your skills and boat handling
3) It's entirely possible to do and will build your confidence.

With the right momentum, you can sail in, and drop the sails in time and coast right into where you want to go.

The carpet? I think you are afraid of failure when there is actually no risk involved. You are afraid of embarrassment? The real embarrassment is not even trying.

I don't have insurance and have never caused any damage. I came into dock today without using an engine as I have done hundreds of times. I have to pass within a few ft/inches of other boats. The key is to go slow enough and there is never any risk of damage. A lot of people with engines come in way too fast: if their engine failed to reverse they would cause damage that could have been completely avoided.

I have seen plenty of people sail in and out of docks and in marinas. Then the marina people complain about it because they wouldn't feel comfortable doing this because they have never tried to do it.

Imagine if people who have never used a bicycle decided it was a bad idea and no one should use one. This actually happened in a few miserable towns.

A lot of boats blew up from propane but never heard any blow from lithium batteries. If you don't like it, better not go to any marinas anywhere because all of the boats have laptops and cell phones with lithium ion.

I don't really care how you come into the marina as long as you aren't putting toxic fumes in the air and water. This directly negatively affects me and everyone else. So go ahead and use your sails, oars and/or electric motor, the distance/duration covered is minimal for batteries to supply. If you use diesel power in 2020 you are not green as you claim. It's so easy for you to just use vegetable oil which has significantly cleaner exhaust and I wouldn't mind that and the amount needed to reach your berth tiny.

Sean, the fact that you even propose sailing in and out of a marina berth tells me (as if I hadn't already figured it out) that you don't have much experience or common sense.

Marinas are against it because they know how often it results in damage to someone's boat or the float and they just don't need to deal with the grief which will follow.

But I have sailed in to my berth quite a few times, and out of one once or twice.

Unless the wind is from the right direction it is pretty difficult.

Sailing out: Let's say the wind is behind you? You can't back up against the wind. You could (I have) run a line to the next pier and winch yourself out of the slip, then swing the boat head to wind, and hoist a sail. BUT, then you've got about 40-50 feet to get going fast enough for your keel to start working or you'd just drift sideways back to your birth or your neighbors. Takes a lot of skill, that one. If the wind is abeam then you might have a chance. But if the wind is from your bow, it is the same as from astern: you hoist your sail and ease the boat back out of the slip, then you have to turn and get some way on or you'll be blown onto the next row of boats. It's OK in a soling, but pretty impractical for most cruising boats.

Sailing in: Again, it depends on the wind direction and strength. If you have an upwind slip, it's easier, if you can judge how far you'll coast you drop your sail at the right spot and coast in. If you drop you sail to late you have to kill some speed. I can do tht with my tiller, but for moast boats it's hard. If you do it too soon, you are left throwing lines to somebody (hopefully there is a somebody) to pull you in. Winds abeam, other complications you are either running or tacking to your slip. Downwind slip? well, you need brakes. Don't have brakes? well there is always the dock box to stop you.

So Sean, you're clearly just proposing something that is impractical. Why not just stick with the idea that people use electric engines for coming and going from the dock?

Better yet, quit spouting off on how great your solutions for powering a boat without diesel are and build us a protototype. If it is as great as you say, then you should be able to attract funding and you could really save the world.

Quit talking and start doing.

[carstendenmark]

From the Community Rules :
Challenge others' points of view and opinions, but do so respectfully and thoughtfully.

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Sean, the fact that you even propose sailing in and out of a marina berth tells me (as if I hadn't already figured it out) that you don't have much experience or common sense.


Better yet, quit spouting off on how great your solutions for powering a boat without diesel are and build us a protototype. If it is as great as you say, then you should be able to attract funding and you could really save the world.

Quit talking and start doing.

My sentiments as well.
I am looking forward to the 3-4ft sailboat propellor as well.