Sail boat engine choice - electric or diesel

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by carstendenmark

From the Community Rules :
Challenge others' points of view and opinions, but do so respectfully and thoughtfully.

I will definitely try to follow the Community Rules and if I have not been properly respectful and thoughtful I apologize. I am sorry Sean, please excuse me.

Fred, Wingssail

[seandepagnier]

wingsail,


I grant you permission to say whatever you like to me without censoring your own thoughts.

Originally Posted by wingssail

Sean, the fact that you even propose sailing in and out of a marina berth tells me (as if I hadn't already figured it out) that you don't have much experience or common sense.

First it was 4 miles to open water, then it's 400ft, now it's only 2 boat lengths to get out of the slip. Where do you draw the line on how far you need to motor? It's really up to you, and any of these (even 60 miles not counting solar input) is reasonably possible with electric propulsion.

I have sailed other people's boats into marinas in different occasions and witnessed others doing it a lot of times. I don't have experience on every type of boat, but I have sailed on at least 30 different cruising boats.

It's possible to sail without tacking in 75% of wind directions. So assuming the course you need to sail into the marina falls into one of these directions, you can simply sail in, and when you have enough momentum drop the sail and turn into the slip.

So if you can't do it from wind or tide that day, fine, but when it's possible to sail in: do it and you will gain experience and confidence. If you misjudge, flip a switch and use your electric motor to avert the disaster, but there is no reason the sails should not be up most of the time coming and going.

Marinas are against it because they know how often it results in damage to someone's boat or the float and they just don't need to deal with the grief which will follow.

Often? I have never heard of a boat causing damage from sailing into or out of a marina. I'm sure it's happened but it's way down on the list of boating issues. I have heard a lot of people complain about this mostly hypothetical issue without considering the real issues of boating.


I have seen large power boats cause damage to boats in marinas by leaving a large wake passing very close and everyone was yelling at the guy, but he just yelled back.

The problem is they want to make a rule against something that requires some skill. So maybe you shouldn't do this without some confidence especially if there is much wind. First practice sailing on/off a normal dock or end tie in conditions with very light wind. As the wind increases, don't use the headsail at all, only the main, and reef it a lot. I might use only the main on the 3rd reef in only 15-20 knots of wind sailing up to a dock. Keep in mind you can let the sail out to slow down upwind, and sheet it tight to slow down downwind, and eventually just drop it when the momentum is just right to pull up to the dock.

Making a rule against doing it at all means no one will gain this experience and be capable of doing it or have the confidence to try.

It's very simple to sail off an end tie in 50% of wind directions, in the other cases there are tricks so you can always sail off no matter the wind direction or strength, but still few people sail off even when it's dead simple to do so.

Today at the dock I even heard someone say "I would never stop the engine if I were offshore" These kinds of people are making the "rules".

Unless the wind is from the right direction it is pretty difficult.

I think it depends on the boat and with more experience it becomes easier, but it all depends on the situation. I have even seen boats drop an anchor near their slip because they couldn't get in any other way in the strong tidal current, and this boat had an engine. The same technique using an anchor can get you in a slip in strong winds/currents without an engine.

.... Takes a lot of skill, that one. ...

If it takes skill, it's worth doing.

Downwind slip? well, you need brakes. Don't have brakes? well there is always the dock box to stop you.

You can run on bare poles downwind and unless it's a storm not go too fast that you can't stop the boat using lines. I have always been able to stop the boat with a stern line easing it to gently stop the boat. there are many possible options like even dropping a small anchor or drogue to slow down.

So get an electric motor and practice sailing in and out. The electric motor is there to prevent you from hitting anything running aground or missing a tack, but you won't use much power, and if you get it just right the motor isn't used (bonus). If you need to back out 50 ft it isn't going to use much power.

So Sean, you're clearly just proposing something that is impractical. Why not just stick with the idea that people use electric engines for coming and going from the dock?

A lot of complaint about electric motor and range, but I'm just making the point that if you use the electric motor for control instead of power in protected waters, then you can save a lot of money on batteries. You can sail the ICW for example and have no issues generating enough power from solar panels to maintain control.

I have known this a long time as I have used a sculling oar for many years now. I have been told I could not enter certain atoll passes, I would not make it into certain harbors, I would not make it through canals or the swamp etc, but I ended up using sail power in all of these confined places and the sculling oar for control. An electric motor can do the same thing and with minimal power consumption. A few solar panels is much more power than a human and a sculling oar.

Better yet, quit spouting off on how great your solutions for powering a boat without diesel are and build us a protototype. If it is as great as you say, then you should be able to attract funding and you could really save the world.

Quit talking and start doing.

I did already build a prototype it powers my boat 2 knots using 9.4 amps on a 12 volt battery. I produce more than this from just 4 50 watt solar panels.


I don't really care what choice people make as long as you aren't putting toxic fumes into my lungs, but this is not at all what is happening around here.

There are diesel generators running 24 hours a day with the owners bragging about how they can change the oil while it is running.

The water has a diesel slick over the whole harbor once every 5 days on average and this slick gives off fumes. I scull about 0.75 miles to get away from but then I can't pick up wifi.

Every boat besides mine and the 15% of dinghies that are rowed are producing carcinogenic fumes as they approach the dock. Many of them revving the engine in forward then reverse making large waves in the harbor such as several with 300HP motor on a 16 ft boat, or two 200HP motors on a 20ft boat. These people like to pass within 6ft of my boat going 40knots or faster.

Then the "cruisers" with sailboats come in and a distinct smell of diesel (much worse than gas fumes) permeates through the harbor as they continue to run the engine for 15 minutes after the lines are tied off. They start the engine on the dock running it for several minutes before untying the lines without raising the sails even though it's a dead run to leave. When did this mentality manifest? The cycle repeats as boats come and go.

My main reason from even tying up to the free dock is to displace these people so they have to turn around and leave the harbor or pay since there is one less space available, and I hear them complaining that there is no space for them every time I'm there which makes me grin.

[TrentePieds]

Carsten will be familiar with the places I will mention.

Short-tacking is a particular joy of mine since I learned to sail while a child in the city of Hans Christian Andersen - Odense in Denmark. From the city of Odense there is a canal leading to a water that thereabouts is called a "fjord", although it is not like any fjord that you may be familiar with. The water is exceedingly shallow.

From the sailing club's location, where is was when I wuz a lad, just north of the suburb called Næsby, the canal, which is about 90 yards wide, runs for 5NM along a rather twisting course before you reach the "fjord" at a place called Klintebjerg. Thence you have another 5 miles to go through a dredged channel, an extension to the canal, passing through tricky shallow waters with shifting mud flats before you reach the open water at a place called Gabet ( English: "the maw" as in "bloody big cake 'ole") where the "fjord" debouches into the open water of the Kattegat. The rhumbline out through The Maw is something like 330ºT which is a delight in a norwester which is the most common wind in those parts. "The Maw" is less than 1/4 NM wide.

The boats we used were full keelers. Fractional sloop rigged. They were called "Juniorbåd" (Junior Boat) and were essentially 3/4 scale versions of the well-known Folkboat.

Sean need not fear that my short tacking skills are deficient :-0)!!

Oh — did I mention that that was before motors of any kind were fitted in sailboats? Heck, It's so long ago that it might even have been before Hans Christian Örsted, the Danish scientist, discovered the relationship twixt electricity and magnetism and thereby made electric motors possible.

But Sean might like to consider that with a cross-current of a single knot, which is not unusual in my berth, the set is 100 feet a minute - which I'm sure Sean knows, or knows how to calculate. Therefore, in a minute I would get set 2 1/2 times the width of my fairway, meaning that I would have about 25 seconds to gather sufficient way, from dead in the water, to tack the boat. Not even in a piddling five tonner can I do that :-)

Still as Sean sez: All electric would be delightful. But as I said: Some of us are pragmatists rather than inflexible apologists for some particular dogma.

Long live diversity and good fellowship :-)!

TrentePieds

[seandepagnier]

as for being self righteous, this is not a political issue: it is a moral issue:

"When I entered graduate school in 1958, the historical reputation of the abolitionists was at a low ebb. The previous generation of historians had portrayed them as self-righteous fanatics who incited sectional conflict between North and South and brought on a needless civil war. These meddling zealots ..."

In a recent poll in 2016 "The Times found that nearly 20% of Trump supporters did not approve of freeing the slaves"

abolitionists were really hated because they were suggesting the mainstream way of life was immoral. This lasted long after slaves were freed to this day. Long after diesel fuel is banned from public use, many people will continue to be upset about it for many years afterward.

So I'm proud to be "self righteous" if I'm actually morally right, and there is no surprise to see history repeating itself in a myriad of ways.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

as for being self righteous, this is not a political issue: it is a moral issue:

"When I entered graduate school in 1958, the historical reputation of the abolitionists was at a low ebb. The previous generation of historians had portrayed them as self-righteous fanatics who incited sectional conflict between North and South and brought on a needless civil war. These meddling zealots ..."

In a recent poll in 2016 "The Times found that nearly 20% of Trump supporters did not approve of freeing the slaves"

abolitionists were really hated because they were suggesting the mainstream way of life was immoral. This lasted long after slaves were freed to this day. Long after diesel fuel is banned from public use, many people will continue to be upset about it for many years afterward.

So I'm proud to be "self righteous" if I'm actually morally right, and there is no surprise to see history repeating itself in a myriad of ways.

Actually you are quite wrong it is a simple choice between a ( my preference ) a diesel engine or an electric motor . There is no moral delema to be considered by anyone except you . . Why do you keep trying to make it much more than it is .

[AKA-None]

Can someone show me the hull shape of a 35 ft boat with a 4 ft prop? And where the motor is mounted?

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by AKA-None

Can someone show me the hull shape of a 35 ft boat with a 4 ft prop? And where the motor is mounted?

Not ro mention the draft

[seandepagnier]

electric is much more suited for enhanced control while sailing in tight areas. You can get bursts of power for just a few seconds to help the boat through a tack in a tight area. It takes too much energy to start a diesel engine each time for this to make sense and it's probably bad for them.


It is preferred to use as much sail power as possible even if the battery capacity is sufficient because less battery cycles mean they last longer or you can use the power for something else like an electric hot water heater.

Originally Posted by AKA-None

Can someone show me the hull shape of a 35 ft boat with a 4 ft prop? And where the motor is mounted?

my boat is 33ft with only 32inch prop (undersized for now)

the prop is on an outboard elevator so it can work in shallow water.


I guess it's not a moral issue if you have no consideration for the emissions you cause or the toxic fumes you create that others have to breath.

[MichaelPrichard]

Originally Posted by AKA-None

Can someone show me the hull shape of a 35 ft boat with a 4 ft prop? And where the motor is mounted?

It's probably easier on a catamaran than other hull types, but here are my POD drives partially retracted; I can stop them at any point and you can see that I have ample clearance for very large props, something I'm hoping to experiment with on one side to do direct A/B comparisons with a "standard" 15" prop. My primary limitation will be depth as my max shaft centerline depth is only around 20" which limits me to a 2-2.5ft prop diameter before the tips get too close to the surface and likely start cavitating. But as they'll likely be spinning a lot slower, hopefully I can afford closer surface proximity before cavitation compared to a faster spinning standard prop.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

...

I have sailed other people's boats into marinas in different occasions and witnessed others doing it a lot of times. I don't have experience on every type of boat, but I have sailed on at least 30 different cruising boats.

It's possible to sail without tacking in 75% of wind directions. So assuming the course you need to sail into the marina falls into one of these directions, you can simply sail in, and when you have enough momentum drop the sail and turn into the slip.

...

In all the marinas I know of in New Zealand sailing is not allowed. And given the general (low) level of boat handing abilities, no marina manager nor most berthed boat owners want boats sailing into and out of their berths. Outside berths in an emergency, sure, but manoeuvring up and down fairways, no. And marinas, as well as the maritime rules, have speed limits and no wake zones and controls on most of the behaviours you deplore.

Smaller boats don’t have much inertia and can be managed by hand, but larger boats (displacement and/or windage) are dangerous to manage by hand (that includes line handling) at any speed over dead slow. And in wind and/or current dead slow is not a speed that provides directional control.

How do you back into, or back out of, a finger berth?

Other than marinas, sailing onto and off of moorings and anchors is generally fine. But again, the size of the boat makes a big difference because of inertia and windage, as well as the amount of crowding.

[chrisr]

Originally Posted by MichaelPrichard

It's probably easier on a catamaran than other hull types, but here are my POD drives partially retracted; I can stop them at any point and you can see that I have ample clearance for very large props, something I'm hoping to experiment with on one side to do direct A/B comparisons with a "standard" 15" prop. My primary limitation will be depth as my max shaft centerline depth is only around 20" which limits me to a 2-2.5ft prop diameter before the tips get too close to the surface and likely start cavitating. But as they'll likely be spinning a lot slower, hopefully I can afford closer surface proximity before cavitation compared to a faster spinning standard prop.

in such a case will the prop still be above the minikeel level ?

cheers,

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Sean, the fact that you even propose sailing in and out of a marina berth tells me (as if I hadn't already figured it out) that you don't have much experience or common sense.
...
Quit talking and start doing.

Sean sailed around the world mostly engineless (Boat Alexandra), so he has plenty of experience. Have you been around the world? How often do you sail on and off your anchor?

And he is doing what he says.

[newhaul]

Here is something worth keeping an eye on
https://www.designboom.com/technolog...is-09-30-2020/
now as soon as battery tech catches up it may be worth considering for use on outboard capable craft.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Sean sailed around the world mostly engineless (Boat Alexandra), so he has plenty of experience. Have you been around the world? How often do you sail on and off your anchor?

And he is doing what he says.

Yes he does but it would be nice if he was not so condescending about it .

[seandepagnier]

Originally Posted by fxykty

In all the marinas I know of in New Zealand sailing is not allowed.

I sailed all over new zealand north and south island and went to plenty of marinas. So it seems it was allowed, and I saw other people doing it as well even in 45ft boats.

I'm not saying it's possible to go into any slip any time on any boat, but it is possible to do fairly often and if not, it's usually possible to get within a boat length. It depends on the boat and crew, wind and tide and other factors.

If you can't sail in safely with confidence, this changes with an electric motor, because you can now use an extremely small amount of energy the last few seconds (less than a minute in most cases) to accomplish this and also not have to worry about wind shifts tacking in extremely narrow areas.

It's not really possible to do this with diesel power, you will end up consuming far greater energy because just starting the engine and recharging the batteries from that will use a lot and you are forced to idle it in-between bursts. I think this is an important distinction between electric and diesel: electric allows you to effectively utilize sail power much more, similar to a sculling oar where often one or two strokes is all that is needed.

Originally Posted by Adelie

Sean sailed around the world mostly engineless (Boat Alexandra)

I never powered my boats with a combustion engine anyway, and I sculled more miles than I have used electric motors.