Should I separate my hull from my keel to re-caulk the joint?

[Emoyeni]

Hello, My C&C 30 is in need of fixing the hull/keel joint and I'm trying to determine if this is a simple matter of scraping the caulking out, filling it back in, and then tightening the keel bolts OR if I have to actually get the yard to separate the hull from the keel and then do the above. Here's a photo of what it looks like at the moment

[Gary Mc]

You have what is known as the C and C smile. Not big deal they all do that. There is a dedicated C and C web site that you might wish to look at.
Good Luck

[Emoyeni]

Originally Posted by Gary Mc

You have what is known as the C and C smile. Not big deal they all do that. There is a dedicated C and C web site that you might wish to look at.
Good Luck

I looked there, unfortunately all they have under resources->"fixing the C&C smile" are 6 photos. I guess that's why they called their site the cncphotoalbum.com, he he he.

[Gary Mc]

OK so on the site they will have to torque to tension your keel bolts.
Do that and you should be fine. Check other C and C and you will see they have the same issues with no issues.

[boatman61]

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?v...8hB%252BO7tMYw

https://www.pbo.co.uk/expert-advice/...eel-joint-1257

[PerfectPirate]

If I walk through the yard at my club, virtually every 1970's and early 1980's C&C on the hard has the 'C&C Smile' to some extent. My 27 is the exception simply because I went to the effort of fiberglassing over the hull/keel joint many years ago. This has made spring prep a breeze. However, before that time, I spent many a spring fixing my smiles. They are the result of having a fairly deep and heavy fin keel with a narrow width at the top. This is great for performance, but the flexing of the keel as you heel over and pound through waves leads to the smile being created. It is not indicative of structural failure.


Definitely check the torque on the keel bolts. This is easy to say, but harder to execute, as it requires professional-grade equipment. A C&C 30 Mk I should have 1-inch diameter keel bolts. The manufacturer's specifications for those bolts are that they should be torqued to 350 ft-lbs. My 1/2-inch drive large torque wrench only goes to 250, as do most others. So you will need to find a 3/4-inch torque wrench that can go higher. However, in 45 years of racing on C&C's, I have never heard of any keel working loose. Inside the keel stub / bilge area, C&C reinforced the keel bolt mounts with layers of a stronger fibre material which I was told is called Lyasil. This is apparently bundles of straight fibres of glass, which lend more rigidity than fibreglass cloth does.



Clean the cracked area back to the gelcoat and bare lead. Then fill with a suitable filler. The latest opinions that I have read state that West System G/Flex, suitably thickened, is the best filler for the job. Sand the filler smooth and then apply your bottom paint. Don't be dismayed if you need to repeat the job in a year or two. Some of the less fussy codgers in my club don't even bother to fix their smiles, they just slather fresh bottom paint over them.


For a discussion of the G/Flex solution, see:
C&C 27 Assoc ? Black Arts ? Fixing the C&C 'Smile'


Now, I am more concerned about the cracking and checking which I see on your bottom just above the keel stub. What's going on there?

[Emoyeni]

Originally Posted by PerfectPirate

If I walk through the yard at my club, virtually every 1970's and early 1980's C&C on the hard has the 'C&C Smile' to some extent. My 27 is the exception simply because I went to the effort of fiberglassing over the hull/keel joint many years ago. This has made spring prep a breeze. However, before that time, I spent many a spring fixing my smiles. They are the result of having a fairly deep and heavy fin keel with a narrow width at the top. This is great for performance, but the flexing of the keel as you heel over and pound through waves leads to the smile being created. It is not indicative of structural failure.


Definitely check the torque on the keel bolts. This is easy to say, but harder to execute, as it requires professional-grade equipment. A C&C 30 Mk I should have 1-inch diameter keel bolts. The manufacturer's specifications for those bolts are that they should be torqued to 350 ft-lbs. My 1/2-inch drive large torque wrench only goes to 250, as do most others. So you will need to find a 3/4-inch torque wrench that can go higher. However, in 45 years of racing on C&C's, I have never heard of any keel working loose. Inside the keel stub / bilge area, C&C reinforced the keel bolt mounts with layers of a stronger fibre material which I was told is called Lyasil. This is apparently bundles of straight fibres of glass, which lend more rigidity than fibreglass cloth does.



Clean the cracked area back to the gelcoat and bare lead. Then fill with a suitable filler. The latest opinions that I have read state that West System G/Flex, suitably thickened, is the best filler for the job. Sand the filler smooth and then apply your bottom paint. Don't be dismayed if you need to repeat the job in a year or two. Some of the less fussy codgers in my club don't even bother to fix their smiles, they just slather fresh bottom paint over them.


For a discussion of the G/Flex solution, see:
C&C 27 Assoc ? Black Arts ? Fixing the C&C 'Smile'


Now, I am more concerned about the cracking and checking which I see on your bottom just above the keel stub. What's going on there?

Thanks so much for that great write up! The area you describe is just how the shadows and the little pieces of old filler ended up looking. No issues with the bottom.

[Ken Pole]

The link that fellowC&C27 owner Perfect Pirate may not work; I got a Server not responding message. (Did my smile several years ago with no recurrence).

Try C&C 27 Assoc – Black Arts

[bobfromcanada]

If it's like my small sailboat, not a C&C but same vintage, it was common practice to make the keel slightly smaller than the hull/keel joint and fair it in with bondo after the keel was mounted. Easy for the boat builder because they didn't have to align the hull and keel perfectly. Bondo has no strength and it's a yearly task to fill in that crack.

In my case, the boat builder chopped out a small section of keel at the keel stub and mounted the depth sounder transducer there. Protected from just about everything on the water EXCEPT travel-lift / crane slings. I got tired of replacing transducers, relocated it and filled in that area. Now I have a funny smile in that same location.

[roverhi]

The smile on boats with a swept keel is a result of the fore and aft forces on the keel on the hard being the exact opposite of what they are in the water. In the water the rake of the keel forces the forward end of the keel up while the aft end droops. On the hard, the forces are reversed causing the forward end to droop producing the smile and sometimes indenting the hull at the stern. Use a flexible caulk/filler and forget about it. Rigid fillers like bond/epoxy will just crack. The West Systems flexible epoxy might work but I'd want to ask others who've used it to prove it.

Dropping the keel occasionally is not a bad idea to check the keel bolts but expensive. It's probably not necessary a long as retorqueing the keel bolts doesn't result in a busted stud.

[thruska]

Originally Posted by roverhi

The smile on boats with a swept keel is a result of the fore and aft forces on the keel on the hard being the exact opposite of what they are in the water. In the water the rake of the keel forces the forward end of the keel up while the aft end droops. On the hard, the forces are reversed causing the forward end to droop producing the smile and sometimes indenting the hull at the stern. Use a flexible caulk/filler and forget about it. Rigid fillers like bond/epoxy will just crack. The West Systems flexible epoxy might work but I'd want to ask others who've used it to prove it.

Dropping the keel occasionally is not a bad idea to check the keel bolts but expensive. It's probably not necessary a long as retorqueing the keel bolts doesn't result in a busted stud.

Ive used the West System Epoxy after consulting with the Gudgeon boys. My keel is lead and the joint was leaking from inside out . I tightened the keel bolts. Drilled several 5/16 holes in culprit area of leak. Used xylol to see if I struck the leak path. Poured thinned epoxy in and found leak path . Used regular epoxy and poured inside the keel stub until it was dripping thru . Gorilla taped the drip location. The next day prepped the stub and keel according to West System directives. Phosphorus cleaner on lead scrubbing with wire brush. Stub prep as typical glass repair. Next day mix West epoxy and rollit on the prepared glass stub and keel joint. Scrubbing the epoxy on the lead keel portion with steel brush. Toss the brush . Applied several layers of overlapping fibreglass cloth over the joint. Result is no repeating year after year repair.. Now the proof in the pudding , so to speak, is the comment made by a 40 year veteran of of Tartan boat employ said that my repair saved my keel from separating from my hull in a violent ungrounding by Seatow “experts “. And that’s another story....
So, I’m of the opinion that the bandaids properly applied works. However, in the situation of iron as opposed to lead , I will not endorse due to the rust issue.
In my case , If and when the vessel goes back in the water, I will apply an epoxy barrier coating over the stub and keel joint before bottom paint is applied, in lieu of a thorough inspection for any sign of deterioration.
The bilge is as dry as a popcorn fart, by the way .

Good luck to the OP as you go forward.