Should standards that become a part of a law be free to the public?

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Exile

This has been the lynchpin of your position but I don't think we know that. IOW, how much of their revenues derive from the general public paying to access their standards.

It's not the revenue from specs sales that concerns me most, it's the idea that if standards are treated like part of the "law" and are included in the CFR or wherever else laws are made available to the public, then are they not equivalent to law and would therefore be much harder to change or revise?

But regarding revenue, the government would presumably have to kick in to replace lost revenue from the standards published for free, making the ABYC or whoever more dependent on government support. The government would become the largest paying client. What happens when it's a tight budget year, and you get a government or leader who thinks that recreational boating is just the playground of wealthy elitists?

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

... My guess is that the courts will not change things. Only a law passed by US Congress is likely to change the situation in the US...

Have you (all those with opinions) written to your Congressman?
If so, did you get a substantive reply?

[transmitterdan]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Have you (all those with opinions) written to your Congressman?
If so, did you get a substantive reply?

I actually can talk to my Congress person. What i get in return is a mention about my lackluster contribution to their re-election campaign....

[Dsanduril]

Originally Posted by Steve DAntonio

Let's wait until that happens to condemn ABYC and TC for not making the Standard available, to Canadians. I anxiously await the outcome.

Absolutely

Originally Posted by Steve DAntonio

That's not ABYC's business model, that's my assessment of how the standard is viewed within the the industry and around its periphery.

I understand, but if it were ABYC's business model then there would be no argument. And, in fact, it seems like that may be the way ABYC is heading (at least in the US). If I have my numbers right (and it takes a lot of digging in the CFR to get there) then the last ABYC standard that has actually been incorporated by reference is the July 2001 version of E-8. It's been nearly 20 years since an ABYC standard has been IBRed. Is that deliberate on the part of ABYC? Would love to know.

The short and sweet, an IBRed document becomes law. It is exactly the same as if were published in the CFR. In a democratic republic every single citizen should have free and reasonable access to every single letter, number, and punctuation mark of the law for no reason other than wanting some light weekend reading. IMO that's how it works.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

The short and sweet, an IBRed document becomes law. It is exactly the same as if were published in the CFR. In a democratic republic every single citizen should have free and reasonable access to every single letter, number, and punctuation mark of the law for no reason other than wanting some light weekend reading. IMO that's how it works.

So, if you fly as a passenger on a Boeing 747, and it's built to standards mandated by the FAA (as decreed by law), that whole standard should be available and free for your reading enjoyment.

[Dsanduril]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

So, if you fly as a passenger on a Boeing 747, and it's built to standards mandated by the FAA (as decreed by law), that whole standard should be available and free for your reading enjoyment.

Absolutely. Any citizen should be free to read, review, and challenge any law or piece thereof. And particularly a passenger on a commercial airplane (or any other commercial conveyance). The standards that are used in that case are (ostensibly) intended to protect me, the passenger. Don't I have a right to know what was done for my protection?

I mentioned it earlier, and I tread here with a heavy heart (because it was tragic by itself and because I knew people on board), but clearly the standards that were used in the design and construction of the Conception were inadequate. No one that was below decks got out alive. I have been a passenger and divemaster on that very boat. I think I should be able to read every single USCG requirement that went into her construction, maintenance, annual inspection, and updates. Yes, the USCG will perform a complete investigation and report, but as someone who is a passenger on that (or any other commercial conveyance) I should have the right to review every single compulsory (required by law) bit of regulation about the vehicle.

Do most people just want a summary - "complies with XYZ per standard 123"? Probably (almost certainly). IMO some principles are too important to bend because "people don't care/won't actually read it". The law belongs to the people, once you start making it secret there's a pretty quick slide to tyranny.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

Absolutely. Any citizen should be free to read, review, and challenge any law or piece thereof.

Can you show me, even one circumstance, where they are not, with respect to ABYC standards?

[Dsanduril]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Can you show me, even one circumstance, where they are not, with respect to ABYC standards?

Sure, E-8 July 2001. It may be out of date, but it is still the law. E-9 1990 as well, although I can find that online although I don’t know the legality. There are about 15 or 20 other ABYC standards (running lights, lpg, bonding, fuel lines,...), all out date but nevertheless in the law and costing $75 each to read from ABYC.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

Sure, E-8 July 2001. It may be out of date, but it is still the law. E-9 1990 as well, although I can find that online although I don’t know the legality. There are about 15 or 20 other ABYC standards (running lights, lpg, bonding, fuel lines,...), all out date but nevertheless in the law and costing $75 each to read from ABYC.

You have yet to cite one law, that states a standard referenced by law "must" be available for public viewing.

You have yet to cite one law, that references ABYC standards, that is not available for public viewing.

And as advised many times now, if you desire internet access to ABYC standards, you may do so by becoming an ABYC member for only $185.

[transmitterdan]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

You have yet to cite one law, that states a standard referenced by law "must" be available for public viewing.

You have yet to cite one law, that references ABYC standards, that is not available for public viewing.

And as advised many times now, if you desire internet access to ABYC standards, you may do so by becoming an ABYC member for only $185.

1) This thread is asking if there should be such a law.

2) It’s not all about ABYC. There are dozens of standards organizations.

3) The public should not be expected to pay fees to dozens of standards organizations. That’s the question this thread is exploring. You think it’s ok to charge people an annual fee for every standards organization. I got it. I don’t agree, but I got it that you do.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Have you (all those with opinions) written to your Congressman?
If so, did you get a substantive reply?

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

I actually can talk to my Congress person. What i get in return is a mention about my lackluster contribution to their re-election campaign....

Must be a pretty dumb district, wherein the electorate doesn’t even extpect that their Representatives, at least fake, a modest interest in their constituents’ concerns.
FWIW: the Texas delegation to Congress consists of 36 members, with 23 Republicans, and 13 Democrats, after the 2018 election.

[transmitterdan]

I have had both Democrat and republican congress persons. Present one is a Democrat. But they all ask for donations when I have met them either at my office or their office. The US has the best government money can buy.

If you make the mistake of sending any size donation you will never be able to stop the constant barrage of emails and snail mail asking for more money.

[Dsanduril]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

You have yet to cite one law, that states a standard referenced by law "must" be available for public viewing.

You have yet to cite one law, that references ABYC standards, that is not available for public viewing.

And as advised many times now, if you desire internet access to ABYC standards, you may do so by becoming an ABYC member for only $185.

As noted by several people above, the "must" is a reference to a fair and equal process and access to the law under a quasi-democratic system. A system does exist to allow "public viewing" - I just have to travel to Washington DC to use it - I do not consider that "reasonable", which is the exact word used in the law that set up the system. You may consider it reasonable, I don't. Those are opinions and one day a court will decided what is "reasonable". But I should be able to express my opinions without someone calling me a "whiner", "whinger", or "complainer".

And as I've said several times, the standards to which I believe I deserve access aren't even close to current. If I want to work on the electrical system on my boat in 2020 I sure don't want to make it compliant with E-8 2001! Or even worse E-9 1990! And I don't claim or expect any right or privilege to read or inspect the current E-11 standard without paying my dues - it has not (to my knowledge) been referenced in law, and thus I see no need for ABYC to divulge its contents to me for free.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

1) This thread is asking if there should be such a law.

2) It’s not all about ABYC. There are dozens of standards organizations.

3) The public should not be expected to pay fees to dozens of standards organizations. That’s the question this thread is exploring. You think it’s ok to charge people an annual fee for every standards organization. I got it. I don’t agree, but I got it that you do.

I am seeking responses or clarifications to my questions from the person quoted, for clarification of their stated position(s).

1. The person quoted did not claim there “should” be such a law, the claim was that referenced standards “must” be available for free (beyond the already free availability as applicable, and already cited). Two completely different things. The purpose of my question was to gain clarity; do they mean “must” be available to some additional degree based on their personal wishes (which is categorically false), or they “must” be available because there is some law mandating it that I’m not aware of.

2. The original post was intentionally vague to include all standards, but focused on another thread, specifically referring to ABYC standards. Based on the nature of the forum, naturally standards related to boating have become a significant part of the discussion. I am being clear that my questions are related specifically to ABYC standards.

3. Why not? Again is there any law to support this position or is it just personal preference. If a person wants to see intellectual property created by a standards organization, related to a specific industry that the person does not have to participate in, unless they voluntarily choose to, and the development of those standards come at significant cost, why should the organization “not” be able to charge a reasonable fee for access. Again, nobody holds a gun to anyone’s head to own a boat, or modify it. These are all voluntary choices for a recreeational boat owner. Don’t want to purchase the standards? Choices are:
1. Don’t own a boat.
2. Don’t modify it.
3. Do both or either without reference to standards, and accept personal responsibility for these.
4. Do both or either with reference to the standards and gain the piece of mind and association support the work was done safely.

Why should an individual “not” have to pay the standards association for the valuable standards the association developed?

So far nobody has cited a single law related to this final question, but merely continued positions that they desire it to be free on the internet. Too bad. Just because someone desires something of value to be free, doesn’t and can’t “necessitate“ it, or all standards associations and frankly all society as we know it would completely collapse. All of North America cannot become a welfare state for everything because people don’t wish to pay for what they want.

[Dsanduril]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

...
3. Why not? Again is there any law to support this position or is it just personal preference...

The law has been posted several times in this thread. It is 1 CFR 51.7(a)(3)

That law says, specifically about standards that are incorporated by reference into law that they must be:

reasonably available to and usable by the class of persons affected

The whole question of this thread it the term "reasonable". It is reasonable to have to pay to see the law? Clearly you think it is. I don't. And I think that under the core principles of a free and democratic society the text of any law "must" be available for free.

[EDIT] I'm guessing you think I should be using the word "should" (or something similar) where I am using the word "must". My belief is that this subject is so foundational to the rule of law that the word "must" is warranted.[/EDIT]