Should standards that become a part of a law be free to the public?

[Argyle38]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

False. If the cable is in a conduit, raceway, or protective sheath the fuse must be within 72” of the battery. If it is not in a sheath, then it must be less than 7”.

This is to address the risk of insulation chafe, short circuit to ground, and possible explosion or fire.

It is a good standard.

I find it amazing the number of people claiming to know the standards, and to cast aspersions on the technical committees, when in fact, the accusers have no idea what they are talking about.

So you say it's false, then immediately say what I quoted was correct. As I said, a cable must be fused withing 7". If I don't say it's in a conduit, you can assume it is not. Typical considering the rest of your posts in this thread.

So not "false."

You haven't addressed anything about what would cause the chafe. A properly secured cable won't chafe. Another thing that should, and may be, addressed for any high amperage cable, regardless of where the fuse is. Also, nothing magical happens after the first 7" in regards to chafe, either, just like heat related failures.

I'm not convinced that this is a good standard, contrary to your claim.

But I'm sure you'll use the opportunity to level sideways insults. I'm good with it.

Any chance you'll share with us what your place of business is, as a "Marine Service Provider"?

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Interestingly, I asked the question way back in the thread, “What law declares that a standard must be free, if it is referenced by a law.

I can answer this one: the concept that laws are by and for the people, so they must be freely available. If I'm not mistaken, in the US this even extends to all (non-classified) documents generated by the government or its agencies, which is why NOAA US maps are free online.


...But, at least in the case of ABYC no one has yet shown me a specific example of a law to be applied to boatowners, that requires the ABYC spec.


Re the fusing of a battery cable - (E-11.10.1.1.1 ) the 7" spec can be met with an integral fuseholder in the battery clamp, an inline fuseholder, or a bulkhead-mounting fuseholder... or

2. If the conductor is connected directly to the battery terminal and is contained throughout its entire distance in a sheath or enclosure such as a conduit, junction box, control box or enclosed panel, the overcurrent protection shall be placed as close as practicable to the battery, but not to exceed 72 inches (1.83m).

Questions to the active providers and surveyors:

1. is this spec rigidly enforced - eg would an 8.5" run to the fuseblock be labelled noncompliant?
2. would added protection like an extra layer of rubber or vinyl hose count as a "sheath", permitting a longer run to the fuse?

[EngNate]

A subsection of the Golden Rule: Laws make money and money makes laws. There is nothing wrong with incorporating standards onto law, but law is not to be made by private entities or corporations. If their words become law they must become public domain also.

The US Coast Guard did at one time specifically target the operators of production boats that the agency knew had been manufactured out of compliance with federal laws. They issued tickets and judges enforced them. Responsibility didn't rest on the manufacturers until some ten years later.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

I can answer this one: the concept that laws are by and for the people, so they must be freely available. If I'm not mistaken, in the US this even extends to all (non-classified) documents generated by the government or its agencies, which is why NOAA US maps are free online...

I believe that NOAA charts, and etc., are free online, because they were produced at public expense, and therefore public property.
ABYC, SAE, & UL standards , for instance, are produced at private expense, and are (accordingly) private property, and protected by copyright.

Perhaps one of our attorney-members might clarify.

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

According to the ABYC standard for fuel hoses, the fuel hose used on boats has to be able to withstand a fire for sufficient time for the occupants to attempt to put out the fire, and failing that, get off the boat, before the fuel hose burns open and starts putting fuel on the fire, regardless whether gas or diesel.

It is a good standard.

So I ASSUME you are saying the hose used on commercial trucks does not have the same fire resistance?

Is that true? Have you read both specs and done a comparison?

The basic question was “What is the difference between high quality over the road fuel lines and boat fuel lines?” If it’s fire resistance then that is a sufficient answer.

It’s not the answer I got from the supplier, Parker.

[GordMay]

The new A1-15 rating identifies fuel hose that is more fire-resistant and less permeable than older hose.

Marine-grade fuel hose is much heavier than the same inside-diameter hose as used in automotive applications. This is done as part of its fire or flame testing, a requirement under the regulations. All fuel hose used in engine room spaces on board gasoline-fueled boats must meet a 2.5-minute fire test rating.

The EPA weighed in several years ago, and the new A1-15 designation is addressing the permeation rate for the hose. This is all a part of the new, much stricter evaporative emission requirements now in place for all newly built gasoline-fueled boats. The American Boat and Yacht Council (ABYC) also addresses this in its H-24, Gasoline Fuel System Standards, which essentially mirror USCG and EPA requirements in place today.

So, by design, your new A1-15 fuel hose is rated to a maximum vapor permeation of 15 grams per square meter in a 24-hour period. This compares to a maximum vapor permeation of 100 grams per 24 hour period for your old hose. This represents a significant reduction in the amount of fuel vapor that can actually migrate through the hose. Hose with this rating is acceptable by the EPA for all applications on board.

An important nuance found within the H-24 Standard is the difference between type “A” and type “B” hose. The type B hose is not fire tested, and should only be used in non-engine room spaces.

➥ https://www.boats.com/resources/what...markings-mean/


eg: https://tridentmarine.com/product/tr.../#.XgdVjxtOnIU

[hpeer]

Gord,

Thanks very much.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Argyle38

While being substantiated or not is certainly going to be in the eye of beholder, ABYC does have at least one standard that is at the very least, suspect. There is a standard that the positive mains cable needs to be fused within 7" of the battery terminal.

Most batteries are greater than 7" tall, meaning that the only way to comply would be to have a fuse in line (which I don't think exists in the amperage needed for positive mains) or a very specific product where a fuse holder is combined with a battery terminal.

Now this is a fine product, but to my knowledge, it is only available from one vendor, so to comply, you have to buy their product.

All seven batteries on my boat are equipped with these and they are available through several manufacturers. I think this particular ABYC standard is inadequate in that it does not require such fuse protection on starting batteries. I have seen the results of these explosions and think it is crazy not to have them fuse protected.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by hpeer

So going back to my question about the fuel line l, if I understand the answers correctly, it was yet another case of the surveyor not knowing the codes and giving me bad info?

I mean he clearly said it had to be this specific type of hose with a red (or white?) stripe in it because of ABYC.

And now you guys are saying ABYC does not specify materials?

Wait, Gord just chimed in and says the ABYC DOES specify fuel hose.

So I go back to my question as to why fuel hose is OK for over the road trucks and construction equipment is not OK for my boat?

Frankly I’m really confused about all this.

You're confusion I believe may be caused by semantics. I stated that ABYC does not "approve" fuel lines or any other product and they don't. They do however specify which approvals to use. USCG, SAE, UL etc.

As to whats required for trucks. I have no clue You'd have to check with SAE, it may well be the very same standard.

[hpeer]

Boat,

Correct, semantics.

But that’s why the NEC has companion books, they help explain the actual code. Those codes can be pretty dense and are not always clear. I’ll save the war stories for over beer.

As to the fuses on the start battery, I installed them after reading about a couple who lost their boat because of a short in the starter. Every time they put the fire out it restarted. Not at all sure of the mechanism but th e insurance is cheap. I have spare fuses ty wrapped to the leads.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by wsmurdoch

I knew I heard of this somewhere before. It took a while, but I found it. Douglas Adams, "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy", chapter 1. Arthur Dent (our hero) is confronting a Mr. L. Prosser (from the local council) and a bulldozer operator both intent on leveling his house in preparation for the construction of a bypass.

"But Mr. Dent, the plans have been available in the local planning office for the last nine months."

"Oh yes, well, as soon as I heard I went straight round to see them, yesterday afternoon. You hadn't exactly gone out of your way to call attention to them, had you? I mean, like actually telling anybody or anything."

"But the plans were on display..."

"On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them."

"That's the display department."

"With a flashlight."

"Ah, well, the lights had probably gone."

"So had the stairs."

"But look, you found the notice, didn't you?"

"Yes, said Arthur, "yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying 'Beware of the Leopard.' "


42

Reminds me a bit of Animal House when the dean placed the Delta fraternity on double secret probation.


Seems like both of these would apply to standards. If an individual is required by law to comply with a standard then that standard should be available to the individual. Businesses I can see a good reason for them to be charged. Yes I understand the cost to develop a standard but that doesn't justify charging an individual so he/she can find out whether or not a boat is in compliance.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Yes I understand the cost to develop a standard but that doesn't justify charging an individual so he/she can find out whether or not a boat is in compliance.

I truly do not understand the angst over this. You car is subject to thosands of standards that the average person does not even know exist. There are hundreds of labels buried in your car and even they each have standards they must meet yet no one seems bothered that they don't have instant free access to those.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

I truly do not understand the angst over this. You car is subject to thosands of standards that the average person does not even know exist. There are hundreds of labels buried in your car and even they each have standards they must meet yet no one seems bothered that they don't have instant free access to those.

Well no angst, at least on my part, just an opinion.


Your statement is correct regarding cars (and trucks, etc) but I think the situation with cars is very different than that with boats. Very few car owners are doing work on his/her own car that requires compliance with a safety standard; like installing a second gas tank or replacing the original. Haven't heard of anyone adding an AC generator to their Camry or a propane locker.



Boaters on the other hand are frequently doing such things and if they are required by law to comply with some standard, especially if there is a potential penalty involved, then my opinion, that standard should be readily available.



Of course we all know about opinions; just like an anal sphincter, everybody has one.

[wsmurdoch]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

...But, at least in the case of ABYC no one has yet shown me a specific example of a law to be applied to boatowners, that requires the ABYC spec.

Post #65 of this thread...

[Exile]

Originally Posted by wsmurdoch

Post #65 of this thread...

Seems to be limited to engine cut-off switches. Are there any other ABYC standards incorporated into the law (US CFR's) that specifically apply to recreational along with commercial vessels?