Side loading propane locker

[wildernessdave]

My wife and I just purchased a Vancouver 27 sailboat built in England in 1984. The survey came out well, with only minor upgrades and repairs. The thing that needs the most immediate attention is the propane system.

We will need to add a solinoid, add a pressure guage, new hoses, and a propane sniffer in the bulge, which we see as good things that are important safety upgrades.

However, the surveyor also stated that the propane locker is side loading and is not ABYC compliant so it should be replaced with a top loading propane locker.

The side loading locker drains to the outside and is well sealed with a gasket. If propane were to leak through the gasket there are two large cockpit drains that drain out above the waterline that are directly in front of the door of the propane locker. The propane locker is encorporated into the stern end of the cockpit.

This is a factory installed system and we feel total comfortable with the locker once we upgrade the hoses, regulator, solinoid, and all other aspects of the propane system that are recommended by the surveyor.

I would appreciate other peoples input on this and I am also wondering if others have had luck getting an insurance company to except a side loading propane locker with a gasket like this.

Thanks!

[Stu Jackson]

Have you considered getting in contact with the designer / builder?

[StuM]

Lots of non-US boats have side opening gas lockers in my experience, including our Belize.

Personally, I think this is a ridiculous specification and I've never come across an insurance company requiring it.

I also came across this when looking to confirm that there really is such as requirement:

"The US Coast Guard does not have a standard for LPG or CNG systems on recreational boats. However, if the boat is used to carry six or less passengers for hire the boat must meet at least the ABYC standard. If the boat is a passenger vessel under 100 gross tons and carrying more than six passengers then there are standards in the USCG regulations for those boats."

[tkeithlu]

I regret that I sold my complete set of ABYC regulations, but I built my boat to them, and there was nothing in there about LPG lockers having to be top loading. My locker is side loading, seals, and drains overboard. Let's see:
1. sealed from inside boat
2. drains overboard, not into boat
3. one regulator per bottle in multiple sets
4. solenoid cut off from galley
5. pressure gauge for leak tests
6. all connections in the box; straight runs of hose from there to appliances
7. propane detector at floor under stove
Have I forgotten anything?
I added manual bottle closing from within the galley (it's a long story).

[wildernessdave]

Thanks for your responses. My understanding is that ABYC recently changed their standards, perhaps in 2015?, to include only top opening propane lockers.

However, as suggested many boats are still being manufactured in other parts of the world with side opening lockers and there are many boats sailing far and wide with side opening lockers. I am hopeful that the insurance company will see that a costly remodel to make the propane locker top opening is not necessary.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by tkeithlu

I regret that I sold my complete set of ABYC regulations, but I built my boat to them, and there was nothing in there about LPG lockers having to be top loading. My locker is side loading, seals, and drains overboard. Let's see:
1. sealed from inside boat
2. drains overboard, not into boat
3. one regulator per bottle in multiple sets
4. solenoid cut off from galley
5. pressure gauge for leak tests
6. all connections in the box; straight runs of hose from there to appliances
7. propane detector at floor under stove
Have I forgotten anything?
I added manual bottle closing from within the galley (it's a long story).

The copy I found on line was quite specific (and not recent - it's dated 1993)

https://archive.org/stream/gov.law.a....1993_djvu.txt

L 12.2 in a dedicated locker which shall be:
1.12.2.1 vapor tight to the hull interior,
1.12.2.2 located above the waterline,
1.12.2.3 constructed of or lined with corrosion resistant materials,

L12.2.4 equipped with gasketed cover which:
L 12.2.4.1 opens directly to the atmosphere outside the boat,
L 12.2.4.2 opens only from the top,

[Sailmonkey]

Any boat that is well found and is old enough will not be abyc compliant. If you're comfortable with it carry on and leave well enough alone.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by StuM

The copy I found on line was quite specific (and not recent - it's dated 1993)

https://archive.org/stream/gov.law.a....1993_djvu.txt

L 12.2 in a dedicated locker which shall be:
1.12.2.1 vapor tight to the hull interior,
1.12.2.2 located above the waterline,
1.12.2.3 constructed of or lined with corrosion resistant materials,

L12.2.4 equipped with gasketed cover which:
L 12.2.4.1 opens directly to the atmosphere outside the boat,
L 12.2.4.2 opens only from the top,

A-1 was the first standard produced by ABYC in 1964. Top loading has been a requirement since then.

Take a look at Safe Boat Propane Installations for some photos of what I think are ridiculous European side loaders.

I don't think I'd have a problem with a well gasketed, latchable side loader if everything else was per ABYC A-1 ... but absolutely not like many of the Euro boats.

[basssears]

If you had the space I guess you could add a top loading box inside your existing locker, like one of these:
RL93271 REAL 10# 2.5 Gallon Propane Tank Locker Kit by Sure Marine Products

That's what our boat had retrofitted to it, it's in a cockpit locker on a hinge so you can tilt it out to open / close / change the bottle, and it is ABYC compliant.

That said, that thing is stupid expensive and in our setup is kind of a hassle to deal with.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by wildernessdave

My wife and I just purchased a Vancouver 27 sailboat built in England in 1984. The survey came out well, with only minor upgrades and repairs. The thing that needs the most immediate attention is the propane system.

We will need to add a solinoid, add a pressure guage, new hoses, and a propane sniffer in the bulge, which we see as good things that are important safety upgrades.

However, the surveyor also stated that the propane locker is side loading and is not ABYC compliant so it should be replaced with a top loading propane locker.

The side loading locker drains to the outside and is well sealed with a gasket. If propane were to leak through the gasket there are two large cockpit drains that drain out above the waterline that are directly in front of the door of the propane locker. The propane locker is encorporated into the stern end of the cockpit.

This is a factory installed system and we feel total comfortable with the locker once we upgrade the hoses, regulator, solinoid, and all other aspects of the propane system that are recommended by the surveyor.

I would appreciate other peoples input on this and I am also wondering if others have had luck getting an insurance company to except a side loading propane locker with a gasket like this.

Thanks!

It sounds like red tape but then again they probably feel like many people will let the gasket inspection slide.

[wrwakefield]

It may depend upon how the surveyor worded the comment. Is it a suggestion or a required change? My insurance co. allows 30 days to bring the vessel into compliance with the surveyor's recommendations, or counter them in writing.

I wouldn't ask the ins. co. but would instead stipulate the locker cannot drain anywhere but overboard, and meets the setback criteria [5 ft? Verify this...] for any ports/hatches/etc. that can open to the interior [living spaces] of the vessel.

If they don't counter, it is accepted as part of the insurance coverage as written, so write carefully, succinctly, and well...

e.g., Our propane tanks are in the sizable triangular shaped anchor locker in the upper aft corners- secured to platforms built into the original hull. We needed to protect the tanks from the anchor chain in case we ever roll this beast, so they have secured 5 gallon plastic buckets inverted over them. The hoses are in conduit as protection.

The anchor locker meets all other general propane locker criteria in that it is top loading, sealed from the rest of the vessel [by a bulkhead] and has drains in the bottom above the water line. [2 actually- one on each side...]

While this is no longer considered standard design, this was acceptable to our insurance co. with the additional precautions we implemented.

In case this is helpful. I hope everything works out in your favor.

Cheers! Bill

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by wrwakefield

It may depend upon how the surveyor worded the comment. Is it a suggestion or a required change? My insurance co. allows 30 days to bring the vessel into compliance with the surveyor's recommendations, or counter them in writing.

I wouldn't ask the ins. co. but would instead stipulate the locker cannot drain anywhere but overboard, and meets the setback criteria [5 ft? Verify this...] for any ports/hatches/etc. that can open to the interior [living spaces] of the vessel.

If they don't counter, it is accepted as part of the insurance coverage as written, so write carefully, succinctly, and well...

e.g., Our propane tanks are in the sizable triangular shaped anchor locker in the upper aft corners- secured to platforms built into the original hull. We needed to protect the tanks from the anchor chain in case we ever roll this beast, so they have secured 5 gallon plastic buckets inverted over them. The hoses are in conduit as protection.

The anchor locker meets all other general propane locker criteria in that it is top loading, sealed from the rest of the vessel [by a bulkhead] and has drains in the bottom above the water line. [2 actually- one on each side...]
Cheers! Bill

If ABYC is a concern it must also meet the requirement that it be a dedicated LPG locker. i.e. n0 other gear may be stored in there other than propane tanks, in fact the locker must be designed to inhibit such other use.

[wrwakefield]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

If ABYC is a concern it must also meet the requirement that it be a dedicated LPG locker. i.e. n0 other gear may be stored in there other than propane tanks, in fact the locker must be designed to inhibit such other use.

That is a good additional point to add, Boatpoker. Thanks!

In our case our vessel is for recreational use only [i.e., no chartering...] so we are not held to strict ABYC standards by the USCG or insurance co...

Cheers! Bill

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by wrwakefield

That is a good additional point to add, Boatpoker. Thanks!

In our case our vessel is for recreational use only [i.e., no chartering...] so we are not held to strict ABYC standards by the USCG or insurance co...

Cheers! Bill

Once ran with a Nauticat 43 for about 75 miles motoring into 12' head seas. What a beautiful thing to watch

[wrwakefield]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Once ran with a Nauticat 43 for about 75 miles motoring into 12' head seas. What a beautiful thing to watch

They do handle it well, don't they?

At 44k lbs cruising weight, I was wondering when I upgraded the windlass and ground tackle- adding another ~200lbs to the bow (550 ft of chain, 2 large anchors, and a heavy windlass at 110 lbs...] whether it might change her balance in such conditions [e.g., increased pitching, reduced buoyancy in the bow, etc.] But we can perceive no difference.

She will slice right through the short, steep chop we get along our passages this time of year. [e.g., We recently avoided 16 ft seas on ~30 ft. intervals with 50 kt steady winds gusting 75 in Clarence Strait.]

Therefore I'm not worried when I soon add another 40 lbs to the bow replacing our 60# CQR back-up anchor with a 99 lb Spade that is one its way- to become best bower...

I believe the 90 hp diesel and 22" 3 bladed prop can handle these kinds of conditions just fine based on past experiences in similar, but prefer to avoid those kinds conditions whenever possible... We are way past feeling the need to prove anything...

Cheers! Bill