Steel Boat Building Price and Advise?

[Lagoon4us]

I've built many round bilge aluminium and steel yachts to 45 feet, if anyone wants a wheeling machine design either powered or manual i'm happy to draw one for you, just PM me.
Cheers.

[Matt sachs]

Whats a wheeling machine?

[Lagoon4us]

A wheeling machine puts a compound curve into metal by shrinking one side and stretching the other side.
Early car manufactures built there panels this way, sheet metal workers at one time had 'pin wheeling machines' for forming light metal to a compound curve.

[Matt sachs]

I try to learn something everyday. I just did. Thanks!! I dont need one, but its good to know.

[lostsheep]

I believe they are also called an 'English Wheel'. Harbor Freight sells them.

[gjordan]

I watched a man use an English wheel many years ago, and I considered it a form of art work. To do a good job requires(IMHO) an artist eye. I dont think it would be something that you could build your first round bilge boat with and expect it to be fair. Some people have a natural GOOD EYE and other people use a lot of fairing compound. My 2 cents worth._____Grant.

[chala]

Originally Posted by Matt sachs

I drill oversized holes thru the deck and fill it with west. Then I drill thru the west and bolt to the steel framework under the deck.

An interesting way, never tested the reliability of doing so.

Originally Posted by Matt sachs

Thanks. The track placement dosent have to be finalized just yet. (but I need to iron this out soon) They will be roughly on both sides of the cockpit. I'm prepping for spray foam currently.

The following attachments are from DESIGNED TO WIN, R Marshall ISBN 0 229 11578 0

[chala]

Originally Posted by Matt sachs

(but I need to iron this out soon)

By then you really need to know how the different parts of the boat (sails, mast, shrouds, spreaders,..) will interact with each others (fore sails clashing with spreader, shrouds,..). I simplified by having all the clews inline with the track but if you have roller furling then I guess it will be different.

[Wand]

Originally Posted by gjordan

I dont think it would be something that you could build your first round bilge boat with and expect it to be fair. My 2 cents worth._____Grant.

Grant, could I buy 2 cents worth of your opinion on the hull pictured in post 55 above. Radius chine maybe? Or is it just a compromised attempt at a round bilged hull? Thanks...

[chala]

Originally Posted by Matt sachs

How much force do the tracks have to withstand?

The working load formula from Cruising World should be able to let you calculate the force involved. Wind (32 knots (Yankee)) is according to the sail maker the maximum wind force that the sail can withstand but the sail carrying capacity of a boat heeling to 15 degree may allow no more than 28 knots of wind for the given area of the Yankee for example. A Sail Carrying Capacity calculation is a worthwhile exercise.

[chala]

Most of the fittings are welded.

[gjordan]

Wand, I went back and looked at post 55 and I must say I am guessing at this, but it appears to me to have been a radius chine design that the builder put a little compound curve into the topside plate and the bottom plate, rather than build them flat. Steel plate in the thickness that is used on small boat hulls is amazingly flexible and you can put small amount of compound curve into it without worrying about it buckling. I watched a fellow do a nice compound curve topsides, by welding flat bar, on edge to the plate he was fitting, and welding along the bottom seam of the plate, and then using comealongs to pull on the flat bar until he got the curve he wanted. It has been a long time since I saw that trick, so I think he had 3 or 4 flat bars on an about 12 foot long plate, with the bars extending above the edge of the plate so you could attach the comealongs. I dont think that it was his first metal boat. When I was in the Tuamotus, I rowed over to meet some people on a very nice looking sloop of about 40 foot length. When I got real close I realized that it was a metal boat, but it looked as good as any mold produce plastic boat I had ever seen. I had a long talk with the owner/builder and this almost perfect round bilge boat had been built using heat shrinking of the plate edges to get the curves. He said that there wasnt a half pound of filler on the whole boat. He was a welder by trade, but this was his first boat. I think that he was from OZ. I dont know if my OPINION has helped you at all, but if so, you can put the 2 cents on my tab, and if we cross wakes we can buy each other a beer.______Grant.

[Wand]

Originally Posted by gjordan

...I dont know if my OPINION has helped you at all, but if so, you can put the 2 cents on my tab, and if we cross wakes we can buy each other a beer.______Grant.

Thanks Grant, that all makes sense. I've got value for money on the deal.

I've not had a lot to do with steel boats previously but liked and admired the curvature built into this hull. And it was cheap enough I had thought it likely that it was a radius chine design and had presumed that all such builds had the same compound curvature evident in the top and bottom plates that this one has; it was a prior post of yours in this thread that corrected me on that point. Thus followed my query...

Anyway, this boat needs some replacement of the bottom plate, and while the compounding of the plate is attractive, it also makes it more difficult to repair. I can't easily just whack in a flat plate, not least because it won't fit I am intrigued by the methods for getting compounding curves into steel, for which you've contributed good info, but can see there'll be somewhat of a steep learning curve for me before the job is done. But that's the idea so who's counting...

So, if it's okay with you, I might put that 2 cents on a running tab; I expect I'll owe more before I've finished.

[gjordan]

Wand, I am not a steel boat expert, I am a steel boat enthusiast . I spent years researching and studying as many boats as I could that were being built or were for sale. I had a very nice radius chine 40 footer designed, but never built it. I did buy and cruise a 37 foot hard chine sloop that turned out to be a rather poorly built boat which effected its sailing ability and its maintenance. When we sold that boat my wife put her foot down and said no more steel boats. Most of the cosmetic problems were from the original builder not using the proper paints for steel in a marine environment. Now to your question about the bottom plate. It would be unusual to need to re-plate large areas of a bottom. Typically rust will be from leaking plumbing or from condensation behind an ice box, or maybe from a neglected deck leak. It may look like hell, but probably isnt a very large area of substantial damage. Repairing wasted spots could well be confined to a few patches of a square foot or less. Has an actual steel boat surveyor said that it needs major re-plating? A little bit of wasting makes a tremendous amount of ugly rust. As far as making the compound curves for patches, remember that it is a bottom plate repair, not a topside repair that you will see every time you row up to your boat. There are a couple of options that will pass the bottom beauty test. The poor mans English wheel which is a sledge hammer and sand bags, or do a template of the curve and take your plate to a metal working shop that has an English wheel. Or you can try the edge welding on of bar stock and forcing it into place. The pictures of the boat that you posted dont show very much compounding of the plate so it should not be too hard to do. The 2 hardest thing about a job like that is #1,dont set the interior on fire, #2 cleaning up the areas that are rusted, but dont require replacement. I gave away all of my steel boat building books to a young guy many years ago, or I could refresh my memory. Have you started to build your steel working library? I hope this is of some help, and remember that everything on CF is opinions and there are many of them.______Grant.

[S/V Alchemy]

If anyone is interested, a visit to another boat refitter's blog prompted me to do a rough tally of my costs and purchases refitting my custom steel cutter. Then I made a blog post on the topic:

The world encompassed: The rough tally

It may be of some help to someone considering buying an apparently "nearly there" project boat. Hint: You are never "nearly there"! It's a process of approaching nearly there in hopes of attaining "acceptable".