The Yard Guys

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by Exile

You keep saying "intended purpose," but aren't we talking about offshore ocean sailing with friends & loved ones potentially onboard? I've sailed up & down the eastern seaboard a respectable no. of times, and it's been pretty rough at times. Do you know how many such "cycles" your used, 25 year-old Hunter went through before you bought it?

Offshore sailing with friends and loved ones is exactly what I'm talking about.

No, I don't know how many "cycles" my Hunter has been through. I know it was raced by a previous owner and I can see evidence of that. So it's likely into those cycles for sure. It's not been a dock queen. So, I plan to watch and maintain things as best I can as we go. But I'm certainly not afraid of her breaking apart on us. She surveyed very well.

But I also don't know what that actual "cycles number" is for this boat. Someone said that information is out there somewhere, but I've not seen it.

But that brings up the same question for used "bluewater" boats. How many "cycles" are they worth before not being the "strong, safe" boats people think they are? It's gotta cut both ways. All you have to do is look at that video I posted earlier of the seriously hot mess of a Vagabond 47 to see failures of all kinds that can happen - even to a "bluewater" boat on a lake.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

Not according to the survey or the pics my surveyor took prior to my buying the boat. But you're welcome to try to put it on the customer if you want.

Better yet, it's an opportunity for you to learn where they all go, apply proper labels, finish sealing up the heat shrink on the connectors, and learn how to properly apply strain relief. Part of the educational process . . . .

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by Exile

Better yet, it's an opportunity for you to learn where they all go, apply proper labels, finish sealing up the heat shrink on the connectors, and learn how to properly apply strain relief. Part of the educational process . . . .

So those yard guys were doing me a favor? Nice.

You're much more a silver lining kind of guy than I.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

But that brings up the same question for used "bluewater" boats. How many "cycles" are they worth before not being the "strong, safe" boats people think they are? It's gotta cut both ways. All you have to do is look at that video I posted earlier of the seriously hot mess of a Vagabond 47 to see failures of all kinds that can happen - even to a "bluewater" boat on a lake.

I'm not aware of a problem with people buying older "bluewater" boats and then foregoing surveys or otherwise making unrealistic assumptions based on reputation alone. I do think it's reasonable to assume, however, that many if not most buyers would never know if their mass-produced boat with no-maintenance faux teak, convenient amenities, and queen island aft berth had their bulkheads properly glued or tabbed, or how thick their cored hulls actually were and whether that's sufficient. If there aren't obvious signs of stress or failure, I suspect this wouldn't be picked up on a survey either. In the first instance you're starting with a proper foundation; in the second, well . . . that's what we're debating.

I would think repairing structural issues on an otherwise high quality, well-built boat would be a far simpler matter than trying to compensate for structural deficiencies that are part of the original design. I mean, what is NP supposed to do about the problems he's shown us on the Bene??

[neilpride]

Is done , fiberglass tape both sides , the Oceanis holed by the last cane is in the wáter, its booked for a 6 months chárter, regarding surveys, will be nice to see Smack hunter report, otherwise surveyors have a hard time to inspect really well boats with grid liners..

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by Exile

I would think repairing structural issues on an otherwise high quality, well-built boat would be a far simpler matter than trying to compensate for structural deficiencies that are part of the original design. I mean, what is NP supposed to do about the problems he's shown us on the Bene??

He's supposed to fix them. That's his job - for any kind of boat.

This discussion, however, is also about what exactly constitutes "structural deficiencies". Broken bonds in one boat - or even two - or even three - certainly doesn't constitute a deficiency across an entire brand or model line - especially when that line has hundreds/thousands of boats out there, and especially when you don't know what caused the break. If it is actually a deficiency it will undoubtedly show itself across the fleet.

Until you see a trend like that, drawing any kind of conclusion about Beneteaus, or even worse, production boats, is just like me saying all boats built by Bluewater Yacht Builders Ltd. or designed by Bill Garden are rotted deathtraps because the traditional tabbing in that one Vagabond 47 has failed throughout the boat and the rudder is trashed, the deck is rotten, etc.

I think you have to be a bit more careful about facts than that.

[unbusted67]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

He's supposed to fix them. That's his job - for any kind of boat.

This discussion, however, is also about what exactly constitutes "structural deficiencies". Broken bonds in one boat - or even two - or even three - certainly doesn't constitute a deficiency across an entire brand or model line - especially when that line has hundreds/thousands of boats out there, and especially when you don't know what caused the break. If it is actually a deficiency it will undoubtedly show itself across the fleet.

Until you see a trend like that, drawing any kind of conclusion about Beneteaus, or even worse, production boats, is just like me saying all boats built by Bluewater Yacht Builders Ltd. or designed by Bill Garden are rotted deathtraps because the traditional tabbing in that one Vagabond 47 has failed throughout the boat and the rudder is trashed, the deck is rotten, etc.

I think you have to be a bit more careful about facts than that.

Well put.


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[neilpride]

Smack , read the reply from Andrew..
And take your conclusions.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...2OyxNX8V2-fIyQ

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Smack , read the reply from Andrew..
And take your conclusions.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...2OyxNX8V2-fIyQ

Our story on our ordeals will be written in due course, so please look out for our book.

I've reached my own conclusion. I look forward to that book.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

He's supposed to fix them. That's his job - for any kind of boat.

This discussion, however, is also about what exactly constitutes "structural deficiencies". Broken bonds in one boat - or even two - or even three - certainly doesn't constitute a deficiency across an entire brand or model line - especially when that line has hundreds/thousands of boats out there, and especially when you don't know what caused the break. If it is actually a deficiency it will undoubtedly show itself across the fleet.

Until you see a trend like that, drawing any kind of conclusion about Beneteaus, or even worse, production boats, is just like me saying all boats built by Bluewater Yacht Builders Ltd. or designed by Bill Garden are rotted deathtraps because the traditional tabbing in that one Vagabond 47 has failed throughout the boat and the rudder is trashed, the deck is rotten, etc.

I think you have to be a bit more careful about facts than that.

I was . . . in just a few posts back (#105). It's like a thesis, absolutely essential that you thoroughly read each & every one:

"Having said this, I don't have any hard evidence, nor any credentials for that matter, to authoritatively attribute inferiority to the cheaper, mass-produced boats. But it doesn't sound like you do either with your claims to the contrary. Rightly ot wrongly, this is supported by the anecdotal evidence that I see from the likes of NeilPride & the Bene he's currently working on, Blue Pearl & CR, and two big Benes I've personally seen with serious "nose jobs," i.e. a big chunk of their bows sheared off after some too-close quarters "racing" out in the bay.

Plenty of anecdotal evidence going the other way I know . . . ."

Can't prove it nor would I try, but the problems we're seeing lately on several mass produced boats (vs. trending through the fleet) could be more about the vast majority of the fleet rarely or never leaving the dock. A point which I've also previously noted but you may also have missed. Only a small percentage head out for long ocean passages, moreover, just like any other brand of boat.

Structural problems are obviously not confined to modern mass-produced boats, and of course "bluewater" boats -- old & new -- have problems. (Getting it now??). But your central thesis seems more about proving the worth of the mass produced boats as opposed to demonstrating that more traditional boats are inferior. (Maybe that's your "sub-thesis?). The bottom line is that all the evidence is anecdotal & opinionated (and in my case, subject to some previously admitted bias). What we should be looking for are patterns from similarly branded boats that do long ocean passages, and try and determine if the reported failures are consistent with similar occurrences at sea, and with what technicians & surveyors are finding back at the yards.

Speaking of, I just saw NP's post about the Bene 50's rudder getting ripped out of the boat. (Yes, yes, I know -- I'm sure it has happened to other brands of boats too).

[smackdaddy]

Keep researching exile. You'll catch up.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

Keep researching exile. You'll catch up.

I was hoping you'd just spoonfeed me and I wouldn't have to do any work.

Something about a mfg.'s defect and a technical service bulletin calling for strengthening of the structural area that supports the rudder. No recall. That's as far as I've gotten and, thanks to you, the suspense is killin' me.

[neilpride]

I want to see the bulletin from moorings!!!!

[smackdaddy]

And, remember, in their blog post they mysteriously left out the part about striking a rock prior to all this. Maybe they're saving that for the book?

[avb3]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

He's supposed to fix them. That's his job - for any kind of boat.

This discussion, however, is also about what exactly constitutes "structural deficiencies". Broken bonds in one boat - or even two - or even three - certainly doesn't constitute a deficiency across an entire brand or model line - especially when that line has hundreds/thousands of boats out there, and especially when you don't know what caused the break. If it is actually a deficiency it will undoubtedly show itself across the fleet.

Until you see a trend like that, drawing any kind of conclusion about Beneteaus, or even worse, production boats, is just like me saying all boats built by Bluewater Yacht Builders Ltd. or designed by Bill Garden are rotted deathtraps because the traditional tabbing in that one Vagabond 47 has failed throughout the boat and the rudder is trashed, the deck is rotten, etc.

I think you have to be a bit more careful about facts than that.

I think you should recognize that it takes very few incidents to cause a signficant recall by automobile manufacturers.

From the NHTSA website:

How many reports must be filed before NHTSA investigates an issue?

There is no established number. Agency technical experts review each and every call, letter, and online report of an alleged safety problem filed with NHTSA. Although NHTSA has no jurisdiction over defects that are not safety-related, it does review each report that suggests a potential safety defect involving groups of motor vehicles or vehicle equipment.


I would think if there are any number of safety issues that our community becomes aware of, it is an issue. Remember, air line safety came about by EACH accident being investigated, and the issue addressed. Why should expect anything less from our sailboat manufacturers? There is no reason to brush any incident of a potential hazard under the table.