This Would go Faster if I knew what I was Doing

[Captain Grandpa]

I knew I didn't want a project boat. I walked away from several very nice boats because they weren't ready to sail. I understand just owning a boat is an ongoing project but I really anticipated sailing on the weekends and working on it between voyages. It's been a year now and while I have surely made progress I really thought we would be sailing to Catalina for our 30th anniversary. For a moment I considered selling her and buying something that was in the water. If I can't get this one in the water then most likely I can't keep the other in the water. So we persevere and continue plugging away with the hopes of one day tasting the sea air.

I have stripped the deck of all tackle and am ready to sand, and paint. I have stripped off the non skid matting and purchased kiwi grip to replace it. We took apart the winches cleaned 30 years worth of gunk, crafted new springs (have to make do with the pawls) and am ready to reassemble. I have very little practical experience and am learning lots of skills. I say this because most of my questions are probably so basic that I should be embarrassed to ask. I'm asking anyway because I NEED this boat to sail.

1). If I understand correctly when I sand I use sandpaper about 280 grit and merely scuff the surface enough so the paint will adhere. Is this accurate? What about the non skid portions? The bow has the diamond hatching. Do I need to sand past that to apply my kiwi grip or do I paint over it?

2). I have read enough to know I want to use a two part paint. Beyond that I have no clue what to buy. There are so many and they range in price from $30 a quart to $120. Any suggestions on what I should get?

3) After prepping the deck (sanding cleaning) do I put a primer coat down before the non skid and paint?

4) My dad says to use bondo to repair the damage shown in the picture. Does this make sense to you or would you have another recommendation?

5) I have read that I should use grease on the barrel and all moving parts except for the pawls. The pawls want machine oil. As you can see, other than the barrel and pawls my little winches don't have moving parts. How careful do I need to be with the grease and the proximity to the pawls?

[Jim Cate]

Cap'n G,

I can offer some advice about the Kiwi Grip prep... sorta! We used an Australian product called "Sportscote" which is very similar... same chemistry. The vendor advised that we should scuff with 60 grit, wipe with degreaser and apply. No primer, no fine grit paper. We were applying over LPU paint with some sort of grit in it, so that we didn't really get down to the paint surface with the sanding very well... and yet it adhered brilliantly. That stuff sticks really well, so I wouldn't worry too much about the prep in the non-skid areas.

If you want the non-nonstick areas to come out looking like new you will likely need to fill any dents or cracks, sand flat, put an appropriate sanding primer on and sand with fairly fine paper and then apply the LPU. Frankly, for decks that will be getting dinged up by life, being obsessive about finish will only drive you crazy and delay your getting sailing.

There are several CF posters who are painting pros, and can give better advice about finish painting if you really want to be anal about it! Minaret comes to mind...

Cheers,

Jim

[delmarrey]

Originally Posted by Captain Grandpa

I knew I didn't want a project boat. I walked away from several very nice boats because they weren't ready to sail. I understand just owning a boat is an ongoing project but I really anticipated sailing on the weekends and working on it between voyages. It's been a year now and while I have surely made progress I really thought we would be sailing to Catalina for our 30th anniversary. For a moment I considered selling her and buying something that was in the water. If I can't get this one in the water then most likely I can't keep the other in the water. So we persevere and continue plugging away with the hopes of one day tasting the sea air.

Have you considered renting?
I have stripped the deck of all tackle and am ready to sand, and paint. I have stripped off the non skid matting and purchased kiwi grip to replace it. We took apart the winches cleaned 30 years worth of gunk, crafted new springs (have to make do with the pawls) and am ready to reassemble. I have very little practical experience and am learning lots of skills. I say this because most of my questions are probably so basic that I should be embarrassed to ask. I'm asking anyway because I NEED this boat to sail.

1). If I understand correctly when I sand I use sandpaper about 280 grit and merely scuff the surface enough so the paint will adhere. Is this accurate? What about the non skid portions? The bow has the diamond hatching. Do I need to sand past that to apply my kiwi grip or do I paint over it?

I never use anything finer then 80 grit, mostly 50grit for painted surdpfaces. As for the hatching, use a course scotchbrite and get down in the cracks otherwise the paint will peel.
2). I have read enough to know I want to use a two part paint. Beyond that I have no clue what to buy. There are so many and they range in price from $30 a quart to $120. Any suggestions on what I should get?

I've had great luck with a single part Interlux. With paint one needs to redo every so often and Interlux can be fine sanded and repainted easily with a good color match. Also do not paint in the direct sunlight.
3) After prepping the deck (sanding cleaning) do I put a primer coat down before the non skid and paint?

I would and lightly wet sand after a hard cure! Kiwi grip is water based and may not stick well to what's left.

4) My dad says to use bondo to repair the damage shown in the picture. Does this make sense to you or would you have another recommendation?

NO! Use an epoxy filler! Bondo fillers need to be glassed over or they will crack at the edges and start to peel.

5) I have read that I should use grease on the barrel and all moving parts except for the pawls. The pawls want machine oil. As you can see, other than the barrel and pawls my little winches don't have moving parts. How careful do I need to be with the grease and the proximity to the pawls?

Agreed! Oil on the pawls and grease on the gears and roller bearings. I have a bunch of extra pawl springs from some scraped winches. Let me know what the circle OD is and I may send you some if they match. My pawls are different though.

[natew]

From the picture it looks as though just the paint has chipped away in the darker section and there appears to not be any damage to the underlying fiberglass. Would recommend you just carefully sand out the harsh edges of the old paint working to a progressively finer finish. So start with like 60 or 80 grit and work your way to something like 220. Once there is a smooth transition between the two surfaces (note: you will be making the repair area a bit larger) I would just go over with some high build primer to a smooth surface, then sand probably once or twice more and then paint your finish coat. Also, I would recommend taking a putty knife or something similar and seeing if that paint in that area just around there is in good condition. If you are able to chip it off with a fairly light touch you are probably going to want to chip off as much as you can until you get back to well adhered paint otherwise you are just fixing something that will fail later.

For the wood area, it looks like the fiberglass work is done so just do the same. Apply a primer coat, sand smooth and then your finish coat.

Please please, don't use bondo on a boat. Bondo isn't even a good solution to patching up cars, which is what it was intended to be used for. Purchase some epoxy and some matching filler to properly patch things. Yes, it is expensive but if you are only doing small patches a gallon of resin and quart of hardner and a container of filler will set you back less than $200 and will last you a long long long time.

[Captain Grandpa]

Thank you for the replies:


Delmarrey; yes we have gone out on rentals quite a few times. We found a place in S.D. That rents a 22' for a very reasonable price. I may have to call on them again soon. I am hoping not to though. Even at their prices it's hard to do too often. Especially with this beautiful vessel just waiting for me to finish screwing around and get her done.

I am a little confused about your recommendation on the hatching. Are you suggesting I don't sand that area before applying the kiwi grip? Or that I don't apply the kiwi grip there at all and just clean the area well?

Jim Cate; I hate to show my ignorance, but what do you mean "an appropriate sanding primer" and "fairly fine paper"? I have never done projects like this before. /shrug. I appreciate your point on the use the use the deck will get. As long as this is taking I'm torn between "don't short cut now!" And "Screw it! Just get her in the water!"

Natew: your right. The paint is breaking away, the glass under appears in tact. Is high build primer the same type of thing Jim cate was recommending? The square areas are actually where there was an adhesive mat for a non skid surface and will be redone in this kiwi grip. Thank your for the tip on bondo. It didn't really sound right but again I have no knowledge base to judge with. It appears I may not need either for that spot based on what I read here.

Thank you again for your replies and your willingness to answer such basic questions

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Captain Grandpa

Thank you for the replies:


Jim Cate; I hate to show my ignorance, but what do you mean "an appropriate sanding primer" and "fairly fine paper"? I have never done projects like this before. /shrug. I appreciate your point on the use the use the deck will get. As long as this is taking I'm torn between "don't short cut now!" And "Screw it! Just get her in the water!"


Thank you again for your replies and your willingness to answer such basic questions

G'Day CG,

My recommendations were indeed vague, because each type of deck paint will come with its own set of parameters. That is, each manufacturer will say to use their own primer, and give advice about the grade of sandpaper that will give good results. Again, Minaret can likely give you some actual professional advice along these lines.

Re how good is good enough for deck finishes... Kiwigrip and its relatives provide the best non-skid that I have ever encountered, but the appearance is pretty industrial at best. IMO, obsessing about the smaller shiny parts of the deck is counter productive. I used an Australian product called Altex Elite, which is a brushable LPU employing the roll and tip procedure. The results were mixed... some came out really well, with a gloss similar to a spray job, while other areas were full of runs and brushmarks. After the initial disappointment wore off, I realized that those faults were effectively invisible unless one was actively searching them out, and now they don't bother me much. My point is that (again IMO only) it is only a deck that you walk on, drop things on, drag anchor chain across, and so on. By all means, get some paint on the bare areas, make sure the non-skid works but then go sailing. If your handle of Grandpa means anything, you (like me) don't have all that many years left, so get cracking, mate!

Cheers,

Jim

[natew]

CG,

A high build primer is generally an epoxy based product with most brands filling gaps up to 15-25mil. Think it may be the same as what Jim Cate suggested, but as he also pointed out all of this really depends on what brand of paint you are going with and their specific instructions. My guess is that is original paint, probably a primer layer with atleast 3 layers of finish coat applied meaning you have a gap of close to 10mil you need to fill in. Since you already have some awlgrip I would assume you might stay with that brand for the rest, if you have a look at their website they have a high build primer (product codes: OD3002 OD8002 OD9002) . That is what I would use to shore up the gap if I was using awlgrip paint.

You could also use thickened epoxy but I believe the high build primer is the cheapest, easiest, quickest, and least prone to causing you more headaches. I also means you are replacing paint with, basically, paint as opposed to other substances which may cause incompatability problems, a less than perfect matching surface, cracking, or other problems you might regret later.
That said, advice is worth what you paid for it. And, as I have found with this type of thing, if you ask five different people you will get five different solutions using probably ten different brands of products and techniques.

[jeffjd]

You have been given some good advise, but can I recommend a book that has helped me a lot - Don Casey - This old Boat. A couple of his ideas are lacking but over all it has been priceless.

Also don't hesitate calling the manufactures of the products you plan to buy. You are paying a high price for marine grade, so they should have good customer support. When I serviced my winches for the first time and did not know which part kit to buy so I call Lewmar and was given detailed instructions on the does and don't. They also down sold me on the parts to buy. WM had no clue.

Regarding paint selection - two part LP is great, but takes more effort, a lot more. On the other end rustoleum has a top side pair that is cheap, easy to apply and good reviews online for what it is. If it was my boat I would use LP but the cost and time benefit of the one part paints have merit. If you buy paint in San Diego county they have less restriction than LA or OC county.

[q240z]

The pictures posted look to me as if the paint (or is it gelcoat?) is popping off of the FRP substrate. That can be caused by a few things, but you'll need to scrape off all of it that comes off easily, then feather the edge with a grinder before beginning the rebuilding process. When you feather it, there should be a smooth transition from the FRP below and the primer/paint or gelcoat on top.

If you've already got some Awlgrip, I recommend sticking with it. They also make premixed epoxy fairing compound (Awlfair), which is much easier to work with than mixing up your own. It's also very expensive, it sands like a dream, and is perfectly compatible with all of the Awlgrip products.

Couple of words of advice: you can get a lot of prep work done very quickly with a grinder...you can also make an unholy disaster out of things in the blink of an eye. Practice making smooth grinding passes on a 2x4 or some other scrap until you're positive you've got it down.

Don't fall into the false economy trap on materials. In my Chris Craft Roamer refit, I started out buying inexpensive 3M sandpaper I could find. But when it came to actual sanding, the cheap stuff loses its tooth on the first pass. You spend more time changing paper than you do sanding, and you go through 3~4x the paper you would if you just went with good stuff from the beginning. I find Mirka Abranet (not Autonet) to be the absolute best paper. It'll save you money and time (and aching shoulders) because it cuts like razors for a good long time.

Ditto for paint. If you paint with Awlgrip, it's a 20 year paint job. I've used one-part polyurethanes but wouldn't recommend them for anything you're keeping for more than two years. The shine will start to go away after a year, and after two it's pretty much gone and you're buffing all the time. How many times do you want to paint the boat over the next couple decades? I'm a grandpa, too, and I never want to have to paint my Roamer again.

Good luck and keep us posted!

Cheers,
Q

1969 Chris Craft Roamer 46 Refit

[tropicalescape]

Originally Posted by Captain Grandpa

I knew I didn't want a project boat. I walked away from several very nice boats because they weren't ready to sail. I understand just owning a boat is an ongoing project but I really anticipated sailing on the weekends and working on it between voyages. It's been a year now and while I have surely made progress I really thought we would be sailing to Catalina for our 30th anniversary. For a moment I considered selling her and buying something that was in the water. If I can't get this one in the water then most likely I can't keep the other in the water. So we persevere and continue plugging away with the hopes of one day tasting the sea air.

I have stripped the deck of all tackle and am ready to sand, and paint. I have stripped off the non skid matting and purchased kiwi grip to replace it. We took apart the winches cleaned 30 years worth of gunk, crafted new springs (have to make do with the pawls) and am ready to reassemble. I have very little practical experience and am learning lots of skills. I say this because most of my questions are probably so basic that I should be embarrassed to ask. I'm asking anyway because I NEED this boat to sail.

1). If I understand correctly when I sand I use sandpaper about 280 grit and merely scuff the surface enough so the paint will adhere. Is this accurate? What about the non skid portions? The bow has the diamond hatching. Do I need to sand past that to apply my kiwi grip or do I paint over it?

2). I have read enough to know I want to use a two part paint. Beyond that I have no clue what to buy. There are so many and they range in price from $30 a quart to $120. Any suggestions on what I should get?

3) After prepping the deck (sanding cleaning) do I put a primer coat down before the non skid and paint?

4) My dad says to use bondo to repair the damage shown in the picture. Does this make sense to you or would you have another recommendation?

5) I have read that I should use grease on the barrel and all moving parts except for the pawls. The pawls want machine oil. As you can see, other than the barrel and pawls my little winches don't have moving parts. How careful do I need to be with the grease and the proximity to the pawls?

Look for Don Caseys book about panting a boat,should be at the library..good luck

[delmarrey]

Originally Posted by Captain Grandpa

I am a little confused about your recommendation on the hatching. Are you suggesting I don't sand that area before applying the kiwi grip? Or that I don't apply the kiwi grip there at all and just clean the area well?

If you go over hatching with Kiwi Grip it'll cover it so that it can't be seen anymore. The Kiwi Grip is a fairly think material with lots of texture. So if thats the plan I wouldn't worry about getting the cracks totally sanded. You can chemical etch them. There use to be a product call Liquid Sandpaper but I think it's banded now so acetone and a SS wire brush would give enough of a bonding surface for adhesion.

The more of a virgin scratching the better the bond with a substance/product, but the roughness must be less then the product can fill for leveling. The texturing of a surface is like the hook & loop systems used to hold velcro together but in a micro sense.

[GregSteimel]

Do your future self a favor and get a spray can of lithium grease for your winches. Using it rather than regular grease will avoid the solidified junk you found when opened them up and if you google the winch manufacturers name, you'll find they recommend it as well. And definitely machine oil on the pails.

[Cheechako]

Lubriplate is great for winches too, more of a very lightweight oil/grease. Availble in a small squeeze tube... or used to be anyway. Every millwright I knew had a tube in his tool box.