Toe Rail Varnish & Protection

[SV Allie Rose]

I love the look of teak toe rails when they have a mirror finish similar to that of grand piano. I don’t know what it is - maybe it’s my desire to live up to the “bring on another thousand” slogan - but I decided that I wanted to clean up and protect the teak toe rail on Allie Rose. Thus far, I’ve spent countless hours scraping the old varnish, and removing attached chocks and hardware, and am close to starting the process of actually varnishing. I’ve also spent countless hours researching, and have landed on the products I plan on using. I will update everyone with photos once finished, but wanted to share my intended plan of action incase anyone has feedback on more efficient methods I should be employing.

Varnish -

Step 1 - The toe rails and handrails need to have all varnish removed (use scraper and heat gun to assist). I’ve already got most of it off. All the chocks should be removed too (DONE). Thereafter, I'm sanding the entirety of the toe rail with 220 and an orbital sander.

Step 2 - Use Teak Cleaner and Teak Brightener (I've used YouTube to watch people doing this and follow instructions. The cleaners are expensive. I may need to do 2 rounds of the cleaner and brightener. I am NOT using the "third step" (oil).

Step 3 - Take note of any spots where substantial caulk is missing/removed once finished. Wipe down the entire toe rail with Aceatone. Liberally us acetone. Teak is a VERY oily wood. The acetone will help remove the oils.

Step 4 - Thereafter, tape painters tape on both the outside, and inside, of the toe rail. Apply a beed of 5200 around the toe rail as caulking to prevent wanter intrusion underneath. I was planning on using white as the color. I'm not sure if I should do this pre-or post steps 5-7 (the actual varnish).

Step 5 - I am going to use a product called “Awlwood”, 2 coats of the primer (I think I'll only need one quart), and 8 coats of the top coat in gloss (I'll need one gallon). The product is expensive and I can’t really afford it right now, so I've only picked up a quart of primer and a quart of the clear gloss for now. I plan on applying with a foam brush. I plan on using 330 with my orbital sander between coats, until the final two coats, where I'll wet sand with 800 grit between coats.

Questions: Foam brush ok? Caulk or varnish first, and is 5200 good? Any point to add 12" protection strips to prevent rope chafe, or no?

After getting some feedback on this, I'll reply with a new proposed plan of action and photos once I start, and thereafter finish, this process. There's a section of toe rail that needs replaced on the port side bow, which I've already removed, that I need to size and cut still too. Everything is a project. Everything takes longer, and costs more than expected.

Talk soon - Allie Rose

[s/v Jedi]

You say you did a lot of work already but you don’t post pictures

I think you got the right products but I wouldn’t use the foam brushes. Try a RedTree Badger brush, which doesn’t break the bank and is a huge step up.

[gonesail]

for me the best single part finish is flagship varnish .. with 6 times the UV protection of others. 2 part varnish is worth consideration. the foam brushes work good. i find the mechanical sanders risky as they usually take off too much. hand sanding is better for me. remember that preparation is the key to a good finish so take your time there. i have some feedback about the awlwood but it looks like you already made a decision

[Bycrick]

Re: step 4. I wouldn’t think that applying a caulk to the joint from outside would be a lasting fix for water intrusion between the rail and the hull. And since 5200 is supposedly not particularly UV resistant, an externally applied bead should be even less effective over time.

[SV Allie Rose]

I'm busy with grad school exams coming up at the moment, but work on the boat almost daily. I'll get photos posted here shortly.

Thanks for the recommendation on the brush. As for the caulk - I'm not too worried about water intrusion, but that's what the entire purpose would be. Maybe 4000 since it'd have better UV resistance?

The old teak was in pretty rough shape, but using light pressure with 220 grit on a 6" orbital sander worked well. It also, with more pressure, was able to help smooth out spots where two of the old bow chocks had fallen off and the wood had been grounded through 1/32" by dock lines.

[phorvati]

Is awlwood clear or opaque? I'm sick for loosing the battle with teak toerail. I've seem sisterships with teak painted.
Two part paints are typically sprayed or rolled and tipped. Get a Corona urethaner brush, and feather it in after rolling on.
You may need to sand after each primer coat and each finish coat. You don't want imperfections compounding coat after coat

[Plumbean]

A foam brush works okay for laying down base coats that are going to be sanded but I second the idea of using a badger brush. You will get better results and they are more precise.


And I avoid 5200 at all costs ...

[SV Allie Rose]

Consensus - Foam brush for 1st coat of primer. Hand and between coats 1 & 2 of primer with 220. Use badger brush for coat 2, and thereafter for all coats of gloss finish (likely 6-8 in total). Sand in between gloss coats with 220, until final two coats, where I plan on wet sanding with 600.

Any thoughts on if I should do 25% mineral spirits 75% primer for the first coat? I've seen some old school guys go as far as 60% spirit 40% primer, but not sure for the Awlwood what the best ratio (if any at all) is best for the first primer coat (or if I should dilute for any subsequent coats too).

[Bowdrie]

Going to a 220 profile is a bit much for exterior use, a 180 is just fine, and actually gives a better "tooth" for build-up applications.
When starting from bare/clean teak I highly recommend using "Smiths" CPES on the bare wood before anything else.
The old concept of starting out with large ratios of thinner and gradually working your way to straight varnish was an attempt to get product into the wood deeper than the first layer of un-broken cell structure.
It was always hit-or-miss, Smiths will do that and provide a good barrier for oil in the wood from migrating out and trying to lift the first coats of product.
It also gives a good surface for adhesion of the sealant that you want to use prior to varnish.
You apply it until the wood won't hold any more, and after use you don't really sand it, you just give it a good scuffing to remove any gloss.
I agree, no 5200, in fact, none of the Urethane products are all that great, a Polysulfide is better.
Make sure it's well cured before application of product.
Now you can use your varnish of choice without having to start off with large thinner ratios.
Yes, the "Badger" type/style brushes are the way to go.
The choice of varnish is personal preference, everybody has their favorite but generally you want to avoid the thin/watery products, get something with "body" and high UV resistance.
Use the recommended thinner/brushing liquid, not some "generic paint thinner" from the big-box store.
Two part? It's a form of plastic, it's good until it isn't.

[SV Allie Rose]

Going to a 220 profile is a bit much for exterior use, a 180 is just fine, and actually gives a better "tooth" for build-up applications.

Do I need to go buy some 180? Or is the 220 I have going to be sufficient?

Smiths CPES comes in two quart kits, for $100. Do you brush this on with a “badger” style brush? Or foam applicator brush? How many coats, in your experience, until the teak “won’t hold anymore”?

I’ll use a polysulfide, probably Boatlife Life Caulk in a mahogany color? When should I apply the polysulfide between the CPES, Primer, and Gloss?

Posting photos this afternoon of what she looks like and the portion of the toe rail I need to replace, for any thoughts thereto.

I won't use 5200. Further contemplation has made it abundantly clear this is a bad idea.

Lastly, in what way and how is the brushing liquid used? I presume that's not mixed in, but rather used in some way to help with the actual application? Sorry for the stupid question there... just wanting to understand better. And is the brushing liquid used for the primer and the gloss top coats?

[LakeSuperior]

How will you remove the 5200 two years from now when you have to redo the varnish? IMHO this would be a mistake of epic proportion.

Power sanding will remove too much teak as already pointed out. Countless folks have power sanded through their bungs and decks. In this vein do not even consider power washing teak.

I have had satisfactory results with bleach and water to moderate discolorations on teak.

There is no way to win at this game except to paint, remove, or let the teak go gray.

Flagship is your best bet for longevity as already pointed out. I get 5 to 7 years on eight coats on my sitka spruce spars here in the north country. Spars are outside 4 months per year.

I use cetol on the teak brightwork because I can touch it up year after year. Not so with varnish.

All things regarding boating are a trade-off.

[LakeSuperior]

Forget the caulking. The finish will crack at all of the wood to wood joints first.

[SV Allie Rose]

For further clarification - I had to remove the port side toe rail from the tip of the bow leading aft, about 5' in total length.

While we're on the topic, since it would be foolish to start varnishing until this has been replaced, what's the best methods for attaching the toe rail?

I removed all the old 5200 that used to hold it down. I presume step 1 is to fill the old screw holes with epoxy? Step 2 would be to size and shape the new teak, and thereafter, bed it using ______?

Not even going to write what to bed it with, because I'm sure there's lots of opinions.

Have you ever replaced the curved portion of the toe rail before? Do you have any recommendations, or tips from having done this in the past? I purchased some teak plugs from whitecap to cover the screws, and plan on placing them every 16” like it was done for the remainder of the toe rail that did not require removal. I also believe I can source a piece of teak that the previous owner had allegedly purchased and is sitting in a storage unit 6 hours driving time north of my current port. Just gotta make the trip.

[LakeSuperior]

Lastly, search all the varnish/finish threads on CF. There are many. Perhaps folks are burned out responding to each one that comes along.

In two years time I think it would be interesting and instructive to come back and reread the advice in this and other teak finishing threads.

Back to the caulking...use it only if removing and rebedding the toe rail to prevent water intrusion under the rail and into the deck hull interface or the deck core. Which, is a whole new can of worms.

[Bowdrie]

Originally Posted by SV Allie Rose

Going to a 220 profile is a bit much for exterior use, a 180 is just fine, and actually gives a better "tooth" for build-up applications.

Do I need to go buy some 180? Or is the 220 I have going to be sufficient?

Smiths CPES comes in two quart kits, for $100. Do you brush this on with a “badger” style brush? Or foam applicator brush? How many coats, in your experience, until the teak “won’t hold anymore”?

I’ll use a polysulfide, probably Boatlife Life Caulk in a mahogany color? When should I apply the polysulfide between the CPES, Primer, and Gloss?

Lastly, in what way and how is the brushing liquid used? I presume that's not mixed in, but rather used in some way to help with the actual application? Sorry for the stupid question there... just wanting to understand better. And is the brushing liquid used for the primer and the gloss top coats?

You've already used 220 so don't worry about it, not that big a deal, it's just adding more labor.
The Smiths goes on with some cheap throw-away "chip brushes", use them and toss them.
Amount needed depends largely upon the tightness and orientation of the grain of the wood, no specific rule.
The big varnish suppliers all have their own thinners for their products, some call it a "thinner", some call it a "brushing liquid", you use it sparingly to thin the varnish.
The generic "paint thinner" is for cleaning brushes after use.
The weather affects application, hot direct sunlight means a bit more thinner to get the varnish to "lay down" without brush marks.
After a while you get the "feel" for how the work is going.
Everybody develops their own techniques, I use the polysulfide on top of the Smiths, before subsequent products, others may have a different chain of operations.
Varnishing is one of those things that has a component of "art", kind of like a doctor or doing celestial navigation.
It's the "practice of the art".