viton balls in Stainless races?

[boatsisboats]

Hey all, I am wondering if anyone has experience/ knowledge about using viton loose balls (Harken) with stainless races (Selden). The balls were obviously stainless to begin with, but I cannot get any stainless balls to me within 2 weeks and I'd like to finish this project. Vitons are available now.

I don't know much about viton as a bearing ball. I assume they are strong enough? Are they self lubricating? Can I use standard marine grease?

Further information, they will be in a not well sealed (Selden poor design) forestay furler and when in use, they will not be under much compression. The furler, when sails are out actually pulls itself (effectively) apart. Which makes it relatively low load.

Thanks for your knowledge
Trevor

[Weatherbird]

Are you in the US? Try McMaster-Carr: https://www.mcmaster.com/loose-ball-bearings
They usually deliver within a few days.

[boatsisboats]

Originally Posted by Weatherbird

Are you in the US? Try McMaster-Carr: https://www.mcmaster.com/loose-ball-bearings
They usually deliver within a few days.

Thanks. I should have been doubly clear. I am in Grenada and McMaster won't ship here though their web checkout says it's a country that they will.
They are typically my first try...

[SailingHarmonie]

I am 100% sure you are looking for something other than Viton. Viton is a soft, rubber-like, material used for gaskets, o-rings, and other seals and would be pretty useless as a bearing material.

I suspect you are actually thinking of either Delrin or Torlon. If you do not know which of those to use, pick Torlon. It can be used everwhere Delrin is used, but the opposite is not true. Delrin is only used because it is cheaper.

[DougR]

My Harken furler uses Torlon balls in aluminum races, so stainless races shouldn’t be much different. The balls are not sealed so they can be flushed out readily with a hose, or even rainwater.

Do not grease.

[boatsisboats]

Originally Posted by SailingHarmonie

I am 100% sure you are looking for something other than Viton. Viton is a soft, rubber-like, material used for gaskets, o-rings, and other seals and would be pretty useless as a bearing material.

I suspect you are actually thinking of either Delrin or Torlon. If you do not know which of those to use, pick Torlon. It can be used everwhere Delrin is used, but the opposite is not true. Delrin is only used because it is cheaper.

You are 100% right. I misspoke, sorry. I've never had either material on the boat...
Ok, so you believe that Torlon can be used in place if stainless balls?

Thanks very much

[boatsisboats]

Originally Posted by DougR

My Harken furler uses Torlon balls in aluminum races, so stainless races shouldn’t be much different. The balls are not sealed so they can be flushed out readily with a hose, or even rainwater.

Do not grease.

Thanks Doug. The races are stainless and would like some grease, even with torlon balls, as the races can catch some sea water.
Is there a rule against greasing torlon balls - Or do they just not need it?

Thanks again

[SailingHarmonie]

If the original balls were stainless, I would do everything I could to replace like-with-like. But if you want to go with a plastic ball, I think far and away Torlon is your best bet.

Its success really depends on the load on the balls. Torlon is the best of the plastics at resisting deformation due to static loadings, but it is never going to be as good as a metal ball. They are good for loads that are perpendicular to the axis of the bearing. But if used as thrust bearings, where load is parallel to the axis, they are likely to fail quickly.

If you use Torlon, lubrication is actually NOT recommended. If you grease, or otherwise lubricate them, they tend to slide instead of roll, and then they develop flat spots. As I am sure you can imagine, that is a bad thing.

[boatsisboats]

Originally Posted by SailingHarmonie

If the original balls were stainless, I would do everything I could to replace like-with-like. But if you want to go with a plastic ball, I think far and away Torlon is your best bet.

Its success really depends on the load on the balls. Torlon is the best of the plastics at resisting deformation due to static loadings, but it is never going to be as good as a metal ball. They are good for loads that are perpendicular to the axis of the bearing. But if used as thrust bearings, where load is parallel to the axis, they are likely to fail quickly.

If you use Torlon, lubrication is actually NOT recommended. If you grease, or otherwise lubricate them, they tend to slide instead of roll, and then they develop flat spots. As I am sure you can imagine, that is a bad thing.

Thanks again.
No, I don't want to go with plastic balls. It's what is available to me within the next 2 weeks while I'm here.
I appreciate the explanation.

[Franziska]

Use PTFE spray not grease to lubricate.

[dlj]

I'm not sure why you would worry about lubricating Torlon bearings running between stainless races. They will function without lubrication better than with lubrication. As SailingHarmony pointed out, some lubricants will cause the balls to slide creating flat wear points.

The Torlon to stainless interface does not require lubrication. You said these are in a furler, so they are not thrust bearings? Or are they thrust bearings?

dj

[boatsisboats]

I am not worried. The op made it clear that I had not used torlon before. I am trying to learn and understand what the options are for me. I understand that I don't need to lube the torlon balls, fine, got it. But they are in cast stainless races in the 2 foresail furlers. Those pieces will rust if left alone especially as cupped races inside a furler.

Overall, in a furler the usage is both radial and thrust, but the loads are light. The bearings in this 400 Series Furlex are in a standard race, bearing, cone configuration - radial bearing.

[dlj]

Originally Posted by boatsisboats

I am not worried. The op made it clear that I had not used torlon before. I am trying to learn and understand what the options are for me. I understand that I don't need to lube the torlon balls, fine, got it. But they are in cast stainless races in the 2 foresail furlers. Those pieces will rust if left alone especially as cupped races inside a furler.

Overall, in a furler the usage is both radial and thrust, but the loads are light. The bearings in this 400 Series Furlex are in a standard race, bearing, cone configuration - radial bearing.

So the dilemma is well stated. Torlon bearings don't want a lubricant, the races do want a lubricant, hence the statement made earlier that you should put stainless bearings back in. The dilemma is created due to time constraints. Understood.

The trade offs are, figure out how to replace with stainless balls and loose time, replace with Torlon balls and either try some "experimental" lubrication schemes to try to lessen race corrosion, risking bearing wear or run without lubrication and risk race corrosion.

Kind of like the old saying about there are three ways you can have a job done; quick, cheap or good. But you can only have two of the three. A quick cheap job won't be good. A cheap good job won't be quick and a good quick job won't be cheap.....

dj

[SailingHarmonie]

Originally Posted by dlj

So the dilemma is well stated. Torlon bearings don't want a lubricant, the races do want a lubricant, hence the statement made earlier that you should put stainless bearings back in. The dilemma is created due to time constraints. Understood.

The trade offs are, figure out how to replace with stainless balls and loose time, replace with Torlon balls and either try some "experimental" lubrication schemes to try to lessen race corrosion, risking bearing wear or run without lubrication and risk race corrosion.

Kind of like the old saying about there are three ways you can have a job done; quick, cheap or good. But you can only have two of the three. A quick cheap job won't be good. A cheap good job won't be quick and a good quick job won't be cheap.....

No, the races do NOT require lubrication with Torlon or Delrin ballls. Torlon bearings are used all the time in metal races, and lubrication is not recommended on any of them. Stainless should not require grease to "protect it from corrosion". A regular flush with fresh water should be done to remove salt and dirt. With Torlon bearings that is all you need do.


I am betting you can get whatever bearings you want from 123Bearing in France. They ship all over the world. If they send them by FedEx you can pick them up at the FedEx office in St Georges and pay any duty due. Talk to the local FedEx people about the procedure for import if you haven't done that before.

[dlj]

Originally Posted by SailingHarmonie

No, the races do NOT require lubrication with Torlon or Delrin ballls. Torlon bearings are used all the time in metal races, and lubrication is not recommended on any of them. Stainless should not require grease to "protect it from corrosion". A regular flush with fresh water should be done to remove salt and dirt. With Torlon bearings that is all you need do.


I am betting you can get whatever bearings you want from 123Bearing in France. They ship all over the world. If they send them by FedEx you can pick them up at the FedEx office in St Georges and pay any duty due. Talk to the local FedEx people about the procedure for import if you haven't done that before.

Well I do not have knowledge of the torlon based bearings and races, so I don't know what stainless alloy might be used in a system designed to use torlon bearings. Do you? If so, what alloy is used in the races of a system designed to use torlon bearings? I would not be surprised that an austenitic stainless could be used in the races for torlon bearings. If so, then you are correct in that lubrication in that system is not needed for enhancing corrosion resistance.

However, I do have intimate knowledge of bearing systems built and designed for using stainless steel bearings inside stainless steel races. These are typically all martensitic alloys and their corrosion resistance is not as high as the austenitic alloys - hence, the lubrication used in those systems do in fact aid in their corrosion resistance.

dj