Wagner helm pump bleeding ???

[skipperpete]

Originally Posted by rainforest

THANKS Dublin.

Looking much clearer.

Before redoing RAM seals I will ensure RAM is purged that way ... ie;

Turn wheel to full PORT

Loosen hose connection on STBD end of cylinder

Put pan under to catch oil

Turn wheel full STBD

Tighten loosened connection.

Do same for PORT travel of cylinder.

And to verify or dismiss the leaking ram piston seal proposition spin the helm until you achieve full ram extension then undo the hydraulic fitting on the extended side and slowly turn the helm pump. If oil continuously comes out of the hydraulic fitting on the cylinder, you have a leaking piston seal. Repeat the test for opposite full extension. This is the routine test for steering rams and might save you from needlessly removing and servicing the steering ram again.
Pete

[rainforest]

THANKS Bill O; What a GREAT source of information and advise this Cruisers Forum is. The Corbin39 link = very helpful, especially "filling the system".
The RAM seal kit is N175 PN 119-0017 ....... 2 large O rings and 2 smaller plastic cups were replaced.
The boat was built for Paul Wagner (behind the Wagner shop on west 2nd) and the hydraulics installed by Wagner Engineering during construction - so have to assume, even though the RAM does NOT have bleeder ports, that it is an early Wagner RAM. Though Paul Wagner did not have time to discuss the problem he did suggest the problem could be associated with the RAM ... and that bleeding the RAM without bleeder fittings would not be a problem - still waiting to hear back from Paul.
Taking the helm pump out of the binnacle (DANG I wish I could post a photo) is a NIGHTMARE challenge. Taking it for service an afternoon's drive there and back. SO, considering Cruisers advise I am going to start from square one and bleed the RAM - I'll ask the same fellow that replaced to seals to do it. Because of COVID he wanted to do the job alone. I was not around when he did the job - so I'm wondering how he was able to bleed the system. Needs someone at the helm and at the RAM at the same time. ??? This time I ask him to let me know when he'll be dong the bleeding job. ...

[rainforest]

Hi Bill O;
Cruisers Forum is AMAZING. Thank You and Everyone for your help ... I posted ~100 words this morning but do not see it here. Are posts cleared by Admin before appearing in the thread = guess so.
Gist of it is: without being sure what the trouble is, rather than tearing out the helm pump from a very tight binnacle (a NIGHTMARE of a task and then two 29 mile / 46km trips to a hydraulics machine shop) I decided to start from scratch and get the fellow that replaced the RAM seals to come back and bleed the RAM again - paying careful attention to how he does it ............. and go from there ...

[rainforest]

[IMG]http:/cid:5213654F-C02C-4EF9-8252-17137B3FBE70[/IMG]

[rainforest]

https://share.icloud.com/photos/0hX3...wjXNzWh5p03P_Q

[rainforest]

OH MY GOODNESS !!! Click on the link and you can see my
Wagner hydraulic RAM ........ photo is after the RAM seals were "fixed".
https://share.icloud.com/photos/0hX3...wjXNzWh5p03P_Q

[rainforest]

Wagner HelmControl
https://share.icloud.com/photos/0FUM...P59pM8Gmh_W5Ug

[rainforest]

Wagner helmpump in binnacle
https://share.icloud.com/photos/0sDT...EKXr3PjFwWaSew

[rainforest]

RAM before seal repair
https://share.icloud.com/photos/0dIj...MfWbcXjjn1M6vw

[skipperpete]

Thanks for the photo Rainforest,it clarifies the situation a bit......the ram needs to have the hydraulic connections on the top to successfully purge the cylinder of air. Flip it over temporarily to bleed it if the length of the hoses won’t permit a permanent repositioning.
Pete.

[rainforest]

DANG ... every time I visit this discussion it looks a little different. Some things and photos I and others have posted are missing.
Status: Bleeding = no more bubbles. Solid stop turning to PORT. Wheel travels beyond RAM limit turning to STBD. About to bleed the RAM again.
HOPING SOMEONE CAN REPOST THE INSTRUCTIONS FOR TESTING FOR LEAKS WITHIN THE CYLINDER.
THANKS everyone ...

[skipperpete]

Originally Posted by rainforest

Hi Bill O;

Cruisers Forum is AMAZING. Thank You and Everyone for your help ... I posted ~100 words this morning but do not see it here. Are posts cleared by Admin before appearing in the thread = guess so.

Gist of it is: without being sure what the trouble is, rather than tearing out the helm pump from a very tight binnacle (a NIGHTMARE of a task and then two 29 mile / 46km trips to a hydraulics machine shop) I decided to start from scratch and get the fellow that replaced the RAM seals to come back and bleed the RAM again - paying careful attention to how he does it ............. and go from there ...

This was your earlier post above.
Taking the ram back to the hydraulic guy is a reasonable course of action but testing it first in situ might save a lot of trouble. Taking out the helm pump is about the last thing you should do...... unless the original problem was pump related.
Why did you get the ram seals replaced? leaking end caps or the inability to stall the helm pump at full ram extension?
You can test the operation of the helm pump by either operating the lock valve if it has a lock helm position or blanking off the delivery ports. It should not be possible to move the wheel ( apart from a little bit of internal leakage) if the pump is ok.
A lot of boats have an emergency steering tiller fitted to the rudder stock , do you have something on board that clamps onto that rudder stock?
Keep working away at this, you’ll succeed!

[rainforest]

THANKS Pete; RAM seals replaced because they were leaking - oil all over. I would very much like to test the helm pump in place - without the nightmare of removing it. &%$# the Helm Control may have done that. There are NO lock valves. That function may have been served by the (suspected leaking) "Helm Control" which was bypassed. Blanking off "delivery ports" ??? = Open and block the plumbing to the RAM ??? I guess I could do that in the engine room, half way to the RAM = another oil all over and more bleeding.. There is no emergency tiller.
Currently: System is free of air = no bubbles when lock-to-locking. Helm stalls to PORT when RAM travel is reached. Does not stall to STBD when RAM travel is reached.

[skipperpete]

Rainforest, I went back to earlier posts to get a better understanding of why you’re having difficulty bleeding the system and reading #33 I realized that a hydraulic fitter came to the boat to do the leaking ram, can I assume he also did the system bleeding but failed to solve the current problem?
I have another question, at what point did the bypassing of the pilot pump and manual selector valve take place?
If there’s a problem with the ram piston seals you still should feel resistance to helm pump rotation at full ram extension, just not a solid lockup ( the two piston seals only seal in one direction each). This could all be as simple as a big air lock at a loop in the supply line, possibly where the pilot pump or selector valve resided.
To test the ram in situ see post #31 and reread what others have posted. All posts on this thread have provided excellent information and advice and I’m sure you will get the steering working as well as it did before the ram seal replacement.
Pete

[rainforest]

Hi Pete; Yes, I had reputable marine repair mechanic come to the boat, diagnose the problem as "leaking RAM seals" and replace the seals. Surprised me by doing the repair when I was not there (COVID). Must have had help as you cannot bleed the RAM without someone on the wheel. Thinking back, the wheel must have felt "right" when he was finished. HOWEVER there was oil seeping around the Helm Control and the (no longer used) Autopilot Pump so I bypassed those IMMEDIATELY AFTER RAM SEALS WERE REPLACED and proceeded to bleed the system - took a long time for it to stop burping bubbles.
There IS a hard STOP to the wheel when the RAM reaches full extension when turning to PORT. The wheel does not move further.
The wheel DOES NOT come to a hard STOP when turning to STBD. I can tell when full RAM extension has been reached by more resistance to turning the wheel.
I hope you are right > "If there’s a problem with the ram piston seals you still should feel resistance to helm pump rotation at full ram extension, just not a solid lockup ( the two piston seals only seal in one direction each). This could all be as simple as a big air lock at a loop in the supply line, possibly where the pilot pump or selector valve resided." < ??? I'll go over that again. Looks to be gradual rise ...
I'll go back and read #33. I have tools ready and a pan under the connections between hard copper and RAM flex hose. Now to find someone to crawl in there ... I could get in but, I'm sure, would never be able to get out.
THANK THANKS THANKS !!!