What is good switchboard wiring?

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by coopec43

WOTNAME

That's good in theory but it doesn't work that way for one off boats. (Production boats a different matter)

Assuming you have made an inventory of every component/unit you plan to install then you can do circuit diagrams.

I am now using a Panasonic Toughbook with OpenCPN as a chart plotter. I need a dedicated 12V outlet for it. I have been given a Navman depth sounder and a VHF Radio. How do I power them?

Of course changes in law may require additional equipment to be installed e.g gas detectors.

Err...why doesn't it work for one-off boats?

I have wired completely wired 4 one-off boats (3 mine, 1 for a friend) and countless additions to hundreds of other boats and aircraft. Every time the physical wiring is reflected on paper. Of course when it comes to additions, only the addition is shown on paper and it is up to the owner to keep that paper with the existing paper (if any). If it is tossed overboard, so be it but the circuit details were detailed on paper and handed to the owner. So yeah, I think it works in practice as well as in theory.

I get it that amateurs might not know how to draw a circuit or realise the value of records or are too lazy or for whatever other reason, just don't bother. But untidy wiring and a lack of records are deterrents, not incentives to future buyer. They also make the life of the current owner (pun not intended ) much easier. I promise you that in a few years time you won't remember exactly how you wired the circuit so do you pull apart the existing wiring loom and physically tug and feel the wires or do you have a look at the paper diagram. I know which is easiest!

After handing over the paper diagrams for some complex additions for one guy, he remarked 'these diagrams will be worth as much as the actual physical work if I ever have to get something repaired in the future. I wish I had similar records for all the other electrical stuff on board.'

If you are paying a guy to stick wires in a boat and if he is untidy and he can't or won't provide a record of the details, proceed cautiously.

If you are doing the work, it's your boat and your rules.

To recap, untidy wiring may be safe but IMHO, it ain't good.

But I'm not here to convince you, just responding to your question.

Which gives you a better sense of good practices and safety, both do the same job (engine instruments and switching)?

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by coopec43

Rather than use cable ties I used PVC electrical duct (with snap on lids} to route cables from one point to another. I believe that is a far more preferable (and practical) than using cable ties. (Maybe not a pretty)

Yep, ducting works, especially if there is room. Looming is required in tight spaces.

At the end of the day, it about securing the wire from movement.

[nuku34]

Re documenting your electrical system:
It is a very good idea, and I've done it on some of my 5 yachts. Also numbered tags at each end of all the wire runs and a list of all those numbers.
I crewed a custom alloy 83 footer once. The owner was an engineer who had supervised the build (in Auckland). In the main salon cabin sole was an double hinged opening about 1mX1.5m which contained about 200 hanging file folders organized according to systems e.g. electrical, hydraulic, grey, black, fresh, salt water, etc. There was a file folder for each piece of equipment, and one which had a list of every wire, pipe/hose, what it connected, the size, and the number eg. E(for electrical) 22. Each wire and pipe/hose had a waterproof tag at each end. All the paper files were duplicated on the computer. The owner told me he had one guy working on this throughout the build and it cost around NZ$30,000. The yacht cost around 3 million to build (25 years ago) so it was a minor cost, but very helpful!

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Yep, ducting works, especially if there is room. Looming is required in tight spaces.

At the end of the day, it about securing the wire from movement.

From memory of your previous posts you are an aircraft electrical engineer? If so your standards would be a bit different to mine.

My wiring is a whole lot of discrete circuits so someone trying to work out why the toilet macerator (for example) is not working wouldn't have any trouble (particularly if they used a multimeter)


I was puzzled though when I switched off the power master switch then turned on one of the lights to my amazement the light came on but it was pulsing. (And all the light did the same) Then I realised the lights were working off the solar panels and the MPPT controller was causing the pulsation. I'll fix that by moving the solar panel charge to a busbar behind the master switch.

[GordMay]

On land, the National Electrical Code* [NEC, or NFPA 70], requires each circuit to be distinguishable from all others in the way it is documented on the panel directory or panel schedule, located on the face or inside of the panelboard, or in an approved location, adjacent to the panel door.

* 408.4(A): Circuit Directory or Circuit Identification [2020]
Every circuit and circuit modification shall be legibly identified as to its clear, evident, and specific purpose or use. The identification shall include an approved degree of detail that allows each circuit to be distinguished from all others. Spare positions that contain unused overcurrent devices or switches shall be described accordingly. The identification shall be included in a circuit directory that is located on the face, inside of, or in an approved location adjacent to the panel door in the case of a panelboard and at each switch or circuit breaker in a switchboard or switchgear. No circuit shall be described in a manner that depends on transient conditions of occupancy.

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by GordMay

On land, the National Electrical Code* [NEC, or NFPA 70], requires each circuit to be distinguishable from all others in the way it is documented on the panel directory or panel schedule, located on the face or inside of the panelboard, or in an approved location, adjacent to the panel door.

* 408.4(A): Circuit Directory or Circuit Identification [2020]
Every circuit and circuit modification shall be legibly identified as to its clear, evident, and specific purpose or use. The identification shall include an approved degree of detail that allows each circuit to be distinguished from all others. Spare positions that contain unused overcurrent devices or switches shall be described accordingly. The identification shall be included in a circuit directory that is located on the face, inside of, or in an approved location adjacent to the panel door in the case of a panelboard and at each switch or circuit breaker in a switchboard or switchgear. No circuit shall be described in a manner that depends on transient conditions of occupancy.

Are you being facetious?

Those regulation relate to high voltage (110V 120V AC?) power reticulation grids and not 12 volt.

What's your point?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Electrical_Code

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by coopec43

Are you being facetious?1
Those regulation relate to high voltage (110V 120V AC?) power "reticulation"? grids and not 12 volt. 2
What's your point?3
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Electrical_Code

1. No.

2. In North America 120VAC is classed as “Low Voltage”
Low Voltage:
31-750V in Canada
Under 1000V in USA
THE NEC generally applies to all ‘inside wiring’, under 1,000 volts. .

3. My point is, that circuit identification is [more than] good practice.

? What do you get when you cross a joke, with a rhetorical question, a superfluously expanded vocabulary, and a blatant disregard for previously established axioms?
A: A punchline.

What’s your point?

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by GordMay

1. No.

2. In North America 120VAC is classed as “Low Voltage”
Low Voltage:
31-750V in Canada
Under 1000V in USA
THE NEC generally applies to all ‘inside wiring’, under 1,000 volts. .

3. My point is, that circuit identification is [more than] good practice.

? What do you get when you cross a joke, with a rhetorical question, a superfluously expanded vocabulary, and a blatant disregard for previously established axioms?
A: A punchline.

What’s your point?

I don't know anything about the US Standards BUT


In the United States, the American National Standards Institute (ANSI) establishes nominal voltage ratings for 60 Hz electric power systems over 100 V. Specifically, ANSI C84.1-2020 defines:

• low voltage as 240 to 600 V
• medium voltage as 2.4 to 69kV
• high voltage as 115 kV to 230 kV,
• extra-high voltage as 345 kV to 765 kV,
• and ultra-high voltage as 1,100 kV.

https://www.electricity-magnetism.org/voltage/classification-of-voltage-levels-extra-high-high-medium-low/

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by coopec43

I don't know anything about the US Standards 1

BUT
In the United States, the American National Standards Institute (ANSI) establishes nominal voltage ratings for 60 Hz electric power systems over 100 V. Specifically, ANSI C84.1-2020 defines:
low voltage as 240 to 600 V [2]

• medium voltage as 2.4 to 69kV
• high voltage as 115 kV to 230 kV,
• extra-high voltage as 345 kV to 765 kV,
• and ultra-high voltage as 1,100 kV.

https://www.electricity-magnetism.org/voltage/classification-of-voltage-levels-extra-high-high-medium-low/

1. That's true.
2. Excerpted from ANSI C84.1-20XX3
American National Standard for Electric Power Systems and Equipment Voltage Ratings (60 Hertz)
3.1 Low Voltage (LV): A class of nominal system voltages 1000 volts or less.
ANSI C84.1-20XX, Page 2, lines 123 & 124:
➥ https://durastudio.com/sites/default...2019-02-15.pdf

My question remains: What's your point?
Do you not think circuit identification is good practice; and, even required, on terrestrial systems?

Amusing sidenote:
When I was writing my master electrician’s exam [± 1975], another candidate exclaimed: “Christ! I haven’t wired one of those, in weeks.”; just as I was about to answer the question: “What is the maximum permitted voltage, on an electric pipe organ keyboard”.
FWIW: The correct answer was 30V [Extra Low Voltage}.

[Spot]

Anyone have first-hand experience with the label makers that print the information on heat shrink tubing? Might be easier to use labels like 'flags' on circuits that are already crimped and wired into service.

NEC, ANSI, CRF, ABYC...none of these are Aussie standards.

What would be the 'proper' reference/standard for an Aussie boat?
Are Australian and New Zealand boat wiring standards much different from each other?

[Matt Johnson]

Originally Posted by Spot

Anyone have first-hand experience with the label makers that print the information on heat shrink tubing? Might be easier to use labels like 'flags' on circuits that are already crimped and wired into service.

Yes, I have the Brother Mobile PTE500 and it works well, but another way to do it is print labels on a normal label maker and then put them under clear heat shrink. I've found flag labels tend to get ripped off -- our previous boat had these and I found a lot of them in the bottom of the compartment whenever I did work in the area.

If using duplex cable, then I also write on the jacket what the wire is used for every meter or so just so you can find it at the at any point between the circuit.

[GordMay]

Australian/New Zealand Standard AS/NZS 3004
Electrical installations: Marinas [Part 1] and Recreational Boats [Part 2]
➥https://www.saiglobal.com/pdftemp/pr...004.1-2008.pdf

Australian Standard “AS/NZS 3000" sets out the requirements for the design, construction, and verification, of electrical installations, on land.
➥ https://www.standards.org.au/flagshi...s/wiring-rules


I have no practical experience, outside of North America.

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by Spot

Anyone have first-hand experience with the label makers that print the information on heat shrink tubing? Might be easier to use labels like 'flags' on circuits that are already crimped and wired into service.

NEC, ANSI, CRF, ABYC...none of these are Aussie standards.

What would be the 'proper' reference/standard for an Aussie boat?
Are Australian and New Zealand boat wiring standards much different from each other?

I don't know but maybe you could look at this?

What is the Australian standard for ELV? (EXTRA LOW VOLTAGE)

Breadcrumb. The term extra-low voltage ("ELV") means an operating voltage not exceeding 50 Volt alternating current (a.c.) or 120 Volt ripple free direct current (d.c.) as defined in Australian / New Zealand Standard AS/NZS 3000 — Wiring Rules.

Maybe have a look at this also?
Contents

• Use of SELV (Safety Extra-Low Voltage)
• Use of PELV (Protection by Extra Low Voltage)
• FELV system (Functional Extra-Low Voltage)

https://www.electrical-installation....w_Voltage_(ELV)

(I would be surprised if the US didn't have an equivalent of the Aust/NZ "Extra-low voltage")

[Bowdrie]

OP, perhaps I can clarify regarding my first post; Someone looking at that mess could easily say to themselves, "If what I can see looks like that, what might the parts I can't see look like".
Many of the discussions about rules/regulations and color coding, can go on ad infinitum, and once beyond the ABYC basics of circuit protection and securing of wiring, they largely serve little purpose in 12VDC systems, it just becomes an exercise in splitting hairs to smaller degrees.
It's your boat, you do what you want, everyone develops their own work ethic and decides what is "good enough".
But I do have one piece of advice; Don't try to get a job as an electrician with a real "yacht" builder.

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by Bowdrie

OP, perhaps I can clarify regarding my first post; Someone looking at that mess could easily say to themselves, "If what I can see looks like that, what might the parts I can't see look like".
Many of the discussions about rules/regulations and color coding, can go on ad infinitum, and once beyond the ABYC basics of circuit protection and securing of wiring, they largely serve little purpose in 12VDC systems, it just becomes an exercise in splitting hairs to smaller degrees.
It's your boat, you do what you want, everyone develops their own work ethic and decides what is "good enough".
But I do have one piece of advice; Don't try to get a job as an electrician with a real "yacht" builder.

Well I did read a report on a well known production yacht builder (one of the many that have disappeared) and they were highly critical of the wiring saying it was unsupported and at one point could submerge in bilge water..


I sometime wonder if my Son has OCD (OCD is a desire to work or live in a clean environment or a preference for neatness) because he looked at my wiring and started to bunch the cable up with cable ties. It certainly looked better and neater but was it better?


I'm sure I can improve the presentation by shortening cables to an appropriate length and moving them about on the bus bars. Maybe I should put that on the TO DO list?



Of course production yacht people have a standard set of instruments and plenty of practice to improve.