Will our next battery bank be Sodium ion?

[nfbr]

Why do you think Sodium will be safer than LFP? No data I have see. Indicates a safety advantage.

[stevo_002]

If my eyes didn’t deceive me the max Charging Temperature is 113F. We may need to air condition the engine room soon or discover unconventional sizing in a shallow wet bilge

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by nfbr

Why do you think Sodium will be safer than LFP? No data I have see. Indicates a safety advantage.

Lifepo4 are considered safe but Lithium ion batteries (as used in tools and scooter) can cause problems

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-03-...ding/103582110

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by stevo_002

If my eyes didn’t deceive me the max Charging Temperature is 113F. We may need to air condition the engine room soon or discover unconventional sizing in a shallow wet bilge

Can you give us a link to where you read that?

[stevo_002]

Originally Posted by coopec43

Can you give us a link to where you read that?

See comparison chart on the first page of the tread. Post #6

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by stevo_002

See comparison chart on the first page of the tread. Post #6

Steve

I wonder whether that is a mistake?

I've done a search and all I can find is:

"Sodium ion batteries can operate normally between -40℃ and 80℃ and have good wide temperature characteristics. The high-temperature discharge capacity (55℃ and 80℃) exceeds 100% of the rated capacity, and the low-temperature （-40℃） discharge capacity exceeds 70% of the rated capacity. Sodium ion batteries can achieve 0.1C charging at -20℃, and its charging efficiency is close to 100%. The low-temperature performance surpasses lithium iron phosphate batteries and lead-acid batteries."

https://www.tycorun.com/blogs/news/d...-ion-batteries

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by stevo_002

If my eyes didn’t deceive me the max Charging Temperature is 113F. We may need to air condition the engine room soon or discover unconventional sizing in a shallow wet bilge

Batteries shouldn't be in the engine room anyhow.
Reduces their lifespan anyhow, in general the cooler the better above 0 degrees celsius.
Watch Andy's video and sodium is of the table anyhow for us boaters.

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Batteries shouldn't be in the engine room anyhow.
Reduces their lifespan anyhow, in general the cooler the better above 0 degrees celsius.
Watch Andy's video and sodium is of the table anyhow for us boaters.

Well what about a Sodium ion powered motor car? Would they be off the table too?

[GordMay]

Most lithium-ion battery providers, in the marine industry, use lithium-iron-phosphate (LiFePO4 or LFP) chemistry. It’s high flash point has proved safer, and these batteries are less expensive to produce, than the more-efficient nickel- cobalt-aluminum (NCA) batteries, often used by car companies, such as Tesla, or the NCA batteries [sourced from BMW], used Torqeedo.

The ABYC Technical Department, with input from the industry, recreated a number of scenarios, based on accident narratives, that claimed LiFePO 4 batteries to be the cause of a fire.
In their on-site test lab, the team subjected batteries to conditions ranging from “normal” operations, to extreme use and abuse.
They purchased units built for the marine environment with robust battery management systems. They also included recycled batteries, available from mass retailers, with an “optional” battery management system, and no clear instructions from the battery or cell manufacturer. They tried to replicate sketchy behavior, which is the fear of insurance companies, and regulators, alike.

Originally Posted by John Adey, ABYC

”... Do you know what we found? We couldn’t start the fire (Sorry Billy Joel). We witnessed swollen cells, completely dead batteries, and multiple safety cutoffs (when not bypassed). We had a very hot summer here in MD. Even the high heat didn’t come close to a spontaneous combustion scenario...”

“Abusing LiFePO4 Batteries in ABYC’s Test Kitchen” ~ by John Adey [President of ABYC], courtesy of Rod Collins, Maine Sail, @ marinehowto
➥ https://marinehowto.com/wp-content/u...FP_Testing.pdf

AFIK, ABYC has four relevant standards, related to batteries.
ABYC Standard A-31, E-10, and E-11 address all battery and charger installations as well as wiring, and the new E-13 [replaced ‘TE-13']specifically addresses lithium batteries, including lithium cobalt oxide (LiCoO2), lithium manganese oxide (LiMn2O4), lithium iron phosphate (LiFeP04), lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide (LiNiMnCoO2), lithium nickel cobalt aluminum oxide (LiNiCoAlO2), and lithium titanate (Li4Ti5O12), etc.

The ABYC E-13 standard covers battery charging, system ground, over-current protection, and thermal runaway protection; all focussed on the utmost safety, for the entirety of the marine industry.
E-13’s recommendations take effect, for systems manufactured [or installed] after July 31, 2023.
Also, the standard’s scope lists that it applies to systems of 600-watt hours or greater. For a 12-volt system, that means systems with a capacity of 50 amp-hours or more.
E-13 is expected to be revised & expanded, in three years [2025], instead of the usual five years.

Additional standards, UN 38.3 and UL 2271, also come into play, as a helpful determinant of lithium-battery and lithium cell-control system integrity, for transportation (shipping) purposes.
The tests consist of thermal and vibration testing, shock tests, short-circuit testing, impact, and crush testing ,as well as overcharging, and forced discharge tests.
UL 2271 covers battery safety requirements for the design, manufacture, and testing of lithium-ion batteries used in Light Electric Vehicle (LEV) applications.

See also:

"ABYC E-13 Standards for Lithium Batteries on Marine Vessels"~ by RELiON, January 25, 2024
➥ https://www.relionbattery.com/blog/a...marine-vessels

“Solar Charge Controller Failures” ~ by Rod Collins [Maine Sail], in ‘PBB’. July 20, 2022
➥ https://www.proboat.com/2022/07/sola...ller-failures/

“Lithium batttery safety” ~ Ocean Navigator
➥ https://oceannavigator.com/article/l...tttery-safety/

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Batteries shouldn't be in the engine room anyhow.
Reduces their lifespan anyhow, in general the cooler the better above 0 degrees celsius.
Watch Andy's video and sodium is of the table anyhow for us boaters.

Are we supposed to know who Andy is?

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by coopec43

Are we supposed to know who Andy is?

Only, if we've been following the conversation.

Andy is the host of CaptainRivet’s, previously linked*, “Off-Grid Garage YouTube Channel”, specifically the “Sodium Battery C-Rate Test and Comparison. Better than LiFePO4?” episode.
➥

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taHTbeyBKeA

➥ https://off-grid-garage.com/

* ➥ https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3899068

[coopec43]

Well who said Sodium ion marine batteries are not on the horizon?

SIB 12v 24v sodium-ion batteries 50ah 100ah 200ah 300ah 400ah sodium ion battery pack for solar yacht marine boat RV Camper. US$ 35. 10–499 Units. US$ 34. 500 ...

https://www.globalsources.com/Sodium...212575521p.htm

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Only, if we've been following the conversation.

Andy is the host of CaptainRivet’s, previously linked*, “Off-Grid Garage YouTube Channel”, specifically the “Sodium Battery C-Rate Test and Comparison. Better than LiFePO4?” episode.
➥ ➥

* ➥ https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3899068

OK!


I started to watch one of his video clips and thought it was a joke. I'm sure he tries but he is an amateur (like us) not an expert to take advice from..

[billyehh]

Lots of could and would. It looks like sodium will be a viable battery ion the future. However LiFePo4 chemistry has been around for well over a decade and has proven its safety as well as its rapidly declining cost.
I bought 2 200 amp LiFePo4 batteries from a well recommended source last winter. They are replacing 630 amps of AGM batteries at less than half the cost 7 years ago. The added bonus is much less weight and a lot more cycles.
I'm a little consevative and like the idea of a chemistry that is well tried and trusted.

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by billyehh

Lots of could and would. It looks like sodium will be a viable battery ion the future. However LiFePo4 chemistry has been around for well over a decade and has proven its safety as well as its rapidly declining cost.
I bought 2 200 amp LiFePo4 batteries from a well recommended source last winter. They are replacing 630 amps of AGM batteries at less than half the cost 7 years ago. The added bonus is much less weight and a lot more cycles.
I'm a little consevative and like the idea of a chemistry that is well tried and trusted.

I agree with everything you say.

As far as Sodium ion's future is concerned China has two EVs powered by Sodium ion in production now.

Why would they opt for Sodium ion? Surely because the S ion battery can be recharged very quickly. Does that mean we would only have to run the engine for five minutes to re-charge the S ion battery instead of 45 minutes to re-charge the LifePo4?