Will our next battery bank be Sodium ion?

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

As i wrote:

Sodium can only do 3C....thats too low for real EV crap
Sodium has 120WH per kg, closer to AGM then to Lifepo4
Sodium voltage range doesn’t fit 12V and 24V plus hardly 48V
So what advantage does sodium have compared to Lifepo4? Cannot see any besides not containing lithiumm.

This one is for you as you obviously can't read

Click on the first link and after the text has loaded click on the arrow to the right of the text AND LISTEN

And if you still don't understand click on the second link and get someone with a bit of intelligence to read it to you! Do you understand?

Chinese auto makers turn to sodium-ion

https://murf.ai/studio/project/2/P01...158359852905P3

https://smallcaps.com.au/sodium-ion-...-gathers-pace/

[SaylorMade]

OK, this is clearly just trolling at this point
You will not accept any sources, and claim they are from "non-experts" while you throw out links to the most suspicous sites on the internet

I'm out

[GILow]

Originally Posted by UFO

Apart from the fact that coopec43 has 3770 posts, reading through this thread makes me think of an AI bot

Perhaps without the I.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by coopec43

Chinese auto makers turn to sodium-ion


https://smallcaps.com.au/sodium-ion-...-gathers-pace/



https://murf.ai/studio/project/2/P01...158359852905P3

Marketing blabla...
Investments in lithium cut due to EV crises, they have massive lithium overstocks and battery prices plumeting its not economically favorable to mine for lithium and not because of sodium batteries.

Finally buy sodium battery and tell us how it goes instead spaming us with marketing bs.
Make it better then Andy from Offgrid garage and post your findings...
And as other here can confirm i am one of the rare guys here who like experimenting as i come from car stereo competition where we tried every battery chemistry we could get our hands on...
All battery data are worse then lifepo4, the cruicial energy density is closer to lead means big capacity is heavy. the only thing this battery can do is being cheap and contain no lithium...and already lifepo4 was not sufficient for EVs, they need LTO booster batteries like Toshiba SCRIB LTO to handle the high current surges when proper small EVs accelerating. LTOs have quite a similar energy density but compare to sodium with 3C can charge with up to 20C, 6 times faster then sodium but you only find them in smaller cars...capacity even in combo with Lifepo4 weights too much. same as with sodium. Thats why they are put in micro cars and scooters, small capacity and accelerating needs. And whats the worlds registration share of microcars...below 2% and these cars contain to 99% of small combustion 1 and 2 cylinder engines from scooters being supercheap in 3rd and 4th world countries...no money for expensive EVs and non of this housholds have electricity at home to charge an EV, they cook with coal or gas...thats the reality.
Same bs as my buddies boat troquedo e outboard...as soon as condition gets a bit worse or diving spot is a bit further away we take my dingy with its ancient but super reliable 2 stroke engine....coming over for a beer is fine but there i take my sup and need no engine at all...

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by wholybee

You could in theory. But LFP can accept 500A too. So there isn't the charging advantage there. Not until you get into 1000's of Amps.

Warren


This is where I get confused. I thought all batteries had a limit as to how fast you can charge them (except Sodium ion)? I've done a little bit of research and come up with:

NOTE: Let's assume my battery bank consists of X2 100Ah batteries in series (24V)

"A widely recommended maximum charge rate for lead-acid batteries is about 20% of the Ah rating, so 15 Amps for your 75 Ah battery."15 Sep

https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/396290/charging-rate-for-deep-cycle-12v-battery

"For example: if you have a 12V 100 Ah AGM battery, you should use a 12V battery charger with a charging current between 10A and 25A. The maximum charging current is 30% of your battery's capacity. If the current is higher, you could overcharge and damage the battery".

https://www.intercel.eu/frequently-asked-questions/what-is-the-right-charging-current-for-your-agm-battery/

As I understand it if I have X2 100A LifeP04 batteries each of these battery contains a BMS that the manufacturer supports a recommended max charge current of 50Ah.18 June 2023

https://forum.solar-electric.com/discussion/357910/lifepo4-battery-recommended-max-charge-current-in-a-series-parallel-connections

In the three cases above (lead-acid, AGM and LifeP04) I am restricted as to the rate of charge.

But if I get a 500A alternator I can charge my Sodium ion battery bank (2 X 100Ah batteries) within 24 minutes??

If both batteries had zero charge I could charge them in 24 minutes?

(60 minutes X 200Ah)/ 500Ah = 24 minutes

Is that correct?

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by coopec43

Warren


This is where I get confused. I thought all batteries had a limit as to how fast you can charge them (except Sodium ion)? I've done a little bit of research and come up with:

NOTE: Let's assume my battery bank consists of X2 100Ah batteries in series (24V)

"A widely recommended maximum charge rate for lead-acid batteries is about 20% of the Ah rating, so 15 Amps for your 75 Ah battery."15 Sep

https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/396290/charging-rate-for-deep-cycle-12v-battery

"For example: if you have a 12V 100 Ah AGM battery, you should use a 12V battery charger with a charging current between 10A and 25A. The maximum charging current is 30% of your battery's capacity. If the current is higher, you could overcharge and damage the battery".

https://www.intercel.eu/frequently-asked-questions/what-is-the-right-charging-current-for-your-agm-battery/

As I understand it if I have X2 100A LifeP04 batteries each of these battery contains a BMS that the manufacturer supports a recommended max charge current of 50Ah.18 June 2023

https://forum.solar-electric.com/discussion/357910/lifepo4-battery-recommended-max-charge-current-in-a-series-parallel-connections

In the three cases above (lead-acid, AGM and LifeP04) I am restricted as to the rate of charge.

But if I get a 500A alternator I can charge my Sodium ion battery bank (2 X 100Ah batteries) within 24 minutes??

If both batteries had zero charge I could charge them in 24 minutes?

(60 minutes X 200Ah)/ 500Ah = 24 minutes

Is that correct?

Please spare us with all that and just do a research on how an lithium battery actually works and on the other hand what are typical installation and charge and other parameter are important on a boat...so you know whats really important.
You will find out that majority won't charge beyond 0.3C, majority is between 0.1 and 0.2C charge rate.
The trend to a big alternator instead of generator to pull in half a day consumption while you have the engine/s on to dock or anchor gets you maybe 0.5C max on an increasing number of vessels for 30min or 1h, when motorsailing they often scaled back to reduce wear&tear plus diesel. An all lithium and also sodium batteries can do 0.5C, if they can do 1 or 10 or 100C charging is completely irrelevant.
The bottleneck are the BMS in most cases to eg use your house as starter, all cells can do that but often mosfet based BMS not....nearly all dropins have mosfet BMS....

Another fact majority of cruising boats are still 12V and simply upgrading what they have staying at 12V, increasing number have 24V while 48V are still a minority mostly used on new higher end boats. So voltage range need to fit what sodium simply does not. Over and out, Amen.

Additional nobody i know has a 500A alternator (but the coastguard rescue boats do), max is 300A and who has that has a 2000AH or bigger bank. Nobody at a vessel comes to the idea to have a 300A alternator and only a 300AH bank...and thats 1C again every cell can do, its BMS often not.
With todays LifeP04 price where you get 4x300AH grade A cells for below 400Euro i know a lot that have 900 or 1200AH with 100 till 200A max charge at 12V resulting in 0.2C charge...and they will add even more capacity like i do too which lowers the charge rate even more.
But i have 20AH LTO that only start my 50hp diesel with a surge up to 350A so 17C and its also charged with 80A so 4C and empty to full in 20min which a sodium or a lifepo4 cannot do. No BMS and only an active balancer because not needed.

[wholybee]

Originally Posted by coopec43

Warren


This is where I get confused. I thought all batteries had a limit as to how fast you can charge them (except Sodium ion)? I've done a little bit of research and come up with:

NOTE: Let's assume my battery bank consists of X2 100Ah batteries in series (24V)

"A widely recommended maximum charge rate for lead-acid batteries is about 20% of the Ah rating, so 15 Amps for your 75 Ah battery."15 Sep

https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/396290/charging-rate-for-deep-cycle-12v-battery

"For example: if you have a 12V 100 Ah AGM battery, you should use a 12V battery charger with a charging current between 10A and 25A. The maximum charging current is 30% of your battery's capacity. If the current is higher, you could overcharge and damage the battery".

https://www.intercel.eu/frequently-asked-questions/what-is-the-right-charging-current-for-your-agm-battery/

As I understand it if I have X2 100A LifeP04 batteries each of these battery contains a BMS that the manufacturer supports a recommended max charge current of 50Ah.18 June 2023

https://forum.solar-electric.com/discussion/357910/lifepo4-battery-recommended-max-charge-current-in-a-series-parallel-connections

In the three cases above (lead-acid, AGM and LifeP04) I am restricted as to the rate of charge.

But if I get a 500A alternator I can charge my Sodium ion battery bank (2 X 100Ah batteries) within 24 minutes??

If both batteries had zero charge I could charge them in 24 minutes?

(60 minutes X 200Ah)/ 500Ah = 24 minutes

Is that correct?

No, that is only correct for the cheapest LFP (drop-ins with a bottom shelf BMS) The best LFP setups can charge at 2C. So, 200 Amps for a 100Ah battery, or 600 Amps for a 300Ah battery.

Even a little bit better than the cheapest can do 100A.

And we are talking theoretical with the 500A alternator, as Rivet points out, they don't exist. Which circles back to my statement, you don't gain anything with Sodium Ion. Because while they can charge faster, there isn't a way to develop that current on a boat. Realistically, you can do 150 Amps on a boat. Most do less than 100A. A cat with 2 engines might do 300A.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by wholybee

No, that is only correct for the cheapest LFP (drop-ins with a bottom shelf BMS) The best LFP setups can charge at 2C. So, 200 Amps for a 100Ah battery, or 600 Amps for a 300Ah battery.

Even a little bit better than the cheapest can do 100A.

And we are talking theoretical with the 500A alternator, as Rivet points out, they don't exist. Which circles back to my statement, you don't gain anything with Sodium Ion. Because while they can charge faster, there isn't a way to develop that current on a boat. Realistically, you can do 150 Amps on a boat. Most do less than 100A. A cat with 2 engines might do 300A.

Sodium cannot charge faster then Lifepo4, they do 3C hardly with reduction in lifespan. Again a lot of marketing, real world is different. They can do this 3C for 20min on a small cell but not constant.
Sodium cannot deliver 10 or 20C to be used as starter.

The new EVE generation Lifepo4 can do 3C constant too and the new winston generation can do 5C.
Nobody on a vessel goes beyond 0.5C charge rate as that doesn't make sense at all, by far too expensive and no advantage at all.
And nobody spends 2k Euro on a 200A alternator and then buys the cheapest 2x100AH in batteries for 600Euro....someone here for experimental (!) purpose got 6x100AH from the cheapest that brings that back to 0.3C charging to test how they do.

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by wholybee

No, that is only correct for the cheapest LFP (drop-ins with a bottom shelf BMS) The best LFP setups can charge at 2C. So, 200 Amps for a 100Ah battery, or 600 Amps for a 300Ah battery.

Even a little bit better than the cheapest can do 100A.

And we are talking theoretical with the 500A alternator, as Rivet points out, they don't exist. Which circles back to my statement, you don't gain anything with Sodium Ion. Because while they can charge faster, there isn't a way to develop that current on a boat. Realistically, you can do 150 Amps on a boat. Most do less than 100A. A cat with 2 engines might do 300A.

Thanks for that, I accept what you are saying. (and I am way out of my depth)

As far as 500A alternators not being available what about this one? (Where does Rivet get his info? )

But anyway it is just all theoretical: let's leave it at that,

https://www.down4soundshop.com/Mechman-500a/

[GILow]

Originally Posted by coopec43

Thanks for that, I accept what you are saying. (and I am way out of my depth)

As far as 500A alternators not being available what about this one? (Where does Rivet get his info? )

But anyway it is just all theoretical: let's leave it at that,

https://www.down4soundshop.com/Mechman-500a/

Again your comprehension is failing you.

Mr Rivet did not say they were not available, he even remarked that some coast guard boats have them. He said nobody he knew had one, and that makes sense. If you actually spent time sailing a boat you’d know why.

And if you reckon that alternator you linked will produce a continuous 500 amps, I’ve got a bridge to sell.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by coopec43

This one is for you as you obviously can't read

Click on the first link and after the text has loaded click on the arrow to the right of the text AND LISTEN

And if you still don't understand click on the second link and get someone with a bit of intelligence to read it to you! Do you understand?

Chinese auto makers turn to sodium-ion

https://murf.ai/studio/project/2/P01...158359852905P3

https://smallcaps.com.au/sodium-ion-...-gathers-pace/

How many chinese miracles and fake tests do you wanna post...you obviously have no idea what you talk about....how many sodium batteries did you test yourself???

I tested 2, non made 2C.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by GILow

Again your comprehension is failing you.

Mr Rivet did not say they were not available, he even remarked that some coast guard boats have them. He said nobody he knew had one, and that makes sense. If you actually spent time sailing a boat you’d know why.

And if you reckon that alternator you linked will produce a continuous 500 amps, I’ve got a bridge to sell.

Correct...its obvious he has no glue and posting whatever he finds and takes the specs for granted but he actually has no idea. He actually thinks that EV from the article will really do 220km...if that in reality can do more then 100km they are greatful.
Thats posted alt is not even a big case alternator...

I actually come from the car stereo scene and know these alt. This one can do their spec 500A for around 3 min and are specially made to be enough for the 90sec you need to run in SPL competiton (as loud as possible) on full blast during the noise level measurement.
It can do 50% OR 250A constant WHEN driving and with a huge crank pulley, stationary which is comparable to a marine engine bay around 33% or 170A, above that you smoke it.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by coopec43

Thanks for that, I accept what you are saying. (and I am way out of my depth)

As far as 500A alternators not being available what about this one? (Where does Rivet get his info? )

But anyway it is just all theoretical: let's leave it at that,

https://www.down4soundshop.com/Mechman-500a/

If you want a real 500A 24V alternator call Leece Neville and ask for the "Ziegler special edtion"...thats one of the biggest DC alternator made for the Ziegler airport firetruck to be able to run big high pressure pumps for their foam cannons...cost 9000$ a piece and driven by a 1200hp diesel. Some US coastguard vessel have them too for same purpose.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

If you want a real 500A 24V alternator call Leece Neville and ask for the "Ziegler special edtion"...thats one of the biggest DC alternator made for the Ziegler airport firetruck to be able to run big high pressure pumps for their foam cannons...cost 9000$ a piece and driven by a 1200hp diesel. Some US coastguard vessel have them too for same purpose.

Delstar Series 400 Alternator #100-40219
600 Amps, 28 Volts, at 6,000 Rotor RPM [Weight: 94 Lbs/42.5 Kg]
➥ https://delstar-hd.com/pdf/400/D100-40219.pdf

[coopec43]

wholybee

I think I'm getting it!

"Energy Density Lags Behind Lithium-Ion Under current technical conditions, the cell energy density of sodium-ion batteries is approximately 70-200Wh/kg, which is higher than lead-acid batteries at 30-50Wh/kg.18"

AND

The energy density of LiFePO4 lithium battery is normally 150-210Wh/kg, and the energy density of sodium ion battery is 110-160Wh/kg for the first generation.31 Jan 2024

I've got X2 120Ah AGM batteries in my House Bank(with additional space for another two). If I went for Sodium ion I could store X3 times as much energy (Ah) as lead/acid batteries and even more with LifeP04in in the same space. (I didn't realize lead/acid batteries had such a lousy energy density)

Am I on the right track?

If I had X4 Sodium ion (or LifeP04) batteries how on earth would I charge them? (My yacht is a ketch so that makes installation of solar panels difficult. Maybe a solar arch is needed?)