Wood vs grp, et al

[Wand]

Originally Posted by pressuredrop

...wood hull? are you a shipwright? if not, fuggetaabouutiittt

...unless you want to learn, of course. When I got my first carvel hull I knew nothing about carvel - that's why I got it

There's a lot of different pleasures to be had in boating, and exploring materials and learning new skills are among them.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by At sea

Well, the reason "99+% of modern boats are made of (GRP)" is that it's by a longshot the cheapest way to build a boat. Just pop them out of the mold, and the more you pop, the cheaper they become (per unit). It's a production line, and they are 'production boats'.

And while I'd not want ever to go far in one because of the poor impact resistance of glass (hit something and down it goes), there's no question that the cheapness of the build has been fantastic for the recreational boating industry and enabled almost everybody the opportunity of boat ownership.

It's just a pity that so many of them are so ugly - and what's more, as Dockhead says, "they last forever".

I would be very surprised if a reasonably well engineered wooden hull is more impact resistant than a reasonably well engineered composite hull. Neither is as impact resistant as a comparable steel hull, but impact resistance is not the only design value here.

Different composites have different impact resistance properties, too -- my hull is Kevlar forward of the keel and is literally bulletproof.

A very cheap mass produced GRP hull may have much less impact resistance, and indeed much less impact resistance than the material's potential. GRP is such a good material that many, perhaps most GRP boats are built without any decent structural engineering being done.

None of which is to say that wood is a bad material -- it's not -- wood is a lovely, living material with powerful romantic appeal, and it has some good strutural properties -- better strength-to-weight ratio than ordinary GRP (not than Kevlar or carbon, however). Just very expensive and very, very labor-intensive to build in and to maintain, compared to GRP.

[shadow]

Originally Posted by At sea

...unless you want to learn, of course. When I got my first carvel hull I knew nothing about carvel - that's why I got it

There's a lot of different pleasures to be had in boating, and exploring materials and learning new skills are among them.

That was my line of thinking if we actually did get a full wood boat.. Since we have no other plans than to just live and maintain the boat, then my learning curve is infinite.. I literally would have all the time in the world to learn and master (hopefully) all the aspects of the boat, inside and out..

Sounds good on paper but who knows, I could just totally laze out and just drink mohitos.....LOL

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by At sea

Well, the reason "99+% of modern boats are made of (GRP)" is that it's by a longshot the cheapest way to build a boat.

Just pop them out of the mold, and the more you pop, the cheaper they become (per unit). It's a production line, and they are 'production boats'.

And while I'd not want ever to go far in one because of the poor impact resistance of glass (hit something and down it goes), there's no question that the cheapness of the build has been fantastic for the recreational boating industry and enabled almost everybody the opportunity of boat ownership.

It's just a pity that so many of them are so ugly - and what's more, as Dockhead says, "they last forever".

Alas, you can also make a high quality, pretty boat in GRP.

Or is that simply something impossible?

Some choices are up to the builders, others are up to sailors.

In the picture (attached): GRP, neither cheap, poor quality nor ugly. If a boat like this does not make feel like you want "to go far in one" ... then what does?

Cheers,
b.



picture attribution: Cherubini Yachts

[Lugger]

Originally Posted by Astro

In the research/prep (ROOKIE) stage: I often hear/read "Don't get a wooden boat" Why not? Seems like with the spring chores there should be a lot said on the topic. Anyone?

Astro,

Make sure you invest in some good quality woodworking (circlesaw, sanding machines and chisel sharping device, etc. Those are a onetime (hopefully) investment wich will pay for itself in the long term.
If you keep a wooden boat up to date on maintenance you will very rarely find yourself wondering.... where the F%*K does that come from.
Oh... and use (cheap) traditional materials like raw / boiled linseed oil and stockholner tar for preservation of wood. And just one layer of expensive finish for the color and UV filtering.
In general.... Yep, a wooden boat takes more time and care than GRP. But it is up to yourself to keep it under control. On the bright site... if you can do your own repairs, you can do it everywhere and for relative less money.

[South Pacific]

We have owned 2 wood boats and 1 GRP boat, and am currently building a larger wood boat. I would have to disagree with most of the posts above; a well built wood boat requires no more maintenance than a GRP boat.
Our current boat is 3 skin cold moulded (3 x 3/16 diagonal layers and resorcinol glue over longitudinal stringers) , ply decks, and wood cabin sides. It is 36 years old and has just been out of the water for a complete refit and paint. We found no rot, no worms, and certainly no osmosis! Modern paint will last as well as gel coat, and look just as good.
I would say that the strength to weight ratio, and the stiffness to weight ratio of a well built cold moulded boat is as good or better than GRP (but not up to modern but expensive composite materials). The only advantages that I can see in GRP are cost and interior volume, the internal framing of a wood boat takes a small amount of room. The pleasure of owing a wood boat far outweighs the minor disadvantages.

[Astro]

Thanks folks- I have plenty of food for thought/research. These are just the sort of details I was interested in. Osmosing as I write. K

[gbanker]

I was visiting a friends boat once when he showed me a new piece of planking on deck.

"I had a bit of wood rot so I cut it out and replaced it with new wood. You couldn't have done that with a fiberglass boat" he said proudly.

My thought was that because I had a fiberglass boat I wouldn't have any rot to cut out.

To each his own....

[PAR]

The choice of hull material has little to do with the long term ownership and routine maintenance of a yacht. Winterizing, spring commissioning, checking thru hulls, hose and belt R&R, pump outs, bottom painting, cleaning, tune ups, and all the other things that are part of a regular and routine maintenance program, have little to do with the hull material choices folks.

In fact, it's been proven that it takes more labor to restore a faded gel coat then to freshen up a paint job over wood. This speaks to the crux of this issue, labor. Materials are not the significant portion of the yacht's constructed value, it's the labor to build and install equipment. When you count up the materials costs for the hull shell on a wooden and GRP yacht, it's 20% or less of the total project outlay. The bigger the yacht the lower this figure is. So, again, the choice of hull material isn't as big a role as you'd think, when the big picture is examined.

About 20 years ago WoodenBoat Magazine did a survey of yard professionals, taking two hypothetical 35' yachts, one GRP, the other wooden, though a year of use and maintenance. They like the rest of us thought the wooden boat would work out to be more, but the opposite was true. Again, the reason was labor. It was discovered that wooden boat owners tend to keep their boats in better shape, so less maintenance was required. In fact, ultimately the cost associated with maintenance proved to have little bearing on the hull material choices, but more about the quality of owner. Which has been my point since the beginning of this thread.

[barnakiel]

True said.

Have a friend who has a lovely and best maintained steel boat. The other day going out for a beer I pointed a speck of rust to him. Imagine this he went back to the cockpit, came back with a jar and slapped something on the rusty dot. Only then did we go on.

I like his attitude. And I like the way his boat looks - pristine, after 20 years of sailing!

b.

[PAR]

Bingo Barnakiel. There are those that are involved and those that just use. Most just use, but those that are involved usually have the boats everyone else envies. Not because it's a museum quality restoration, of a spectacular old beauty, but because it's plainly obvious that the owner in involved. Again, this has nothing at all to do with the choices in hull materials made by the designer. The "users" always say "oh that must take a lot of work . . . ", but in reality, it doesn't, because there aren't any real surprises when you're involved.