A non US citizen with Delaware registration flys what flag?

[Tingum]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

You are not entitled to fly a US ensign. Probably no one would bother you, we're very alx about displays of our flag.

You can certainly fly the Delaware state flag though.

Sorry but you are incorrect. A Delaware registered boat flies a US ensign.

[scottgledhill]

Originally Posted by Mgago

Just wondering about a non US citizen with Delaware registration. Do they fly the stars and stripes or the Diamond of Delaware or both?

The questioner states the boat is Delaware Registed. A vessel cannot be documented in the United States by a foreign owner. The owner should fly a Yacht ensign if he wants the stars and stripes. A yacht ensign is not an official flag so there are no issues. The Yacht ensign has 13 stripes and a fouled anchor surrounded by stars.

[scottgledhill]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Why is a U.S. registered vessel not entitled to fly a U.S. flag? On the contrary, a U.S. registered vessel is REQUIRED to fly a U.S. flag.

The ensign has nothing to do with the citizenship of the owner or the skipper or the crew. The ship has its own citizenship, and that is the country where it is registered.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_state

Dockhead, you fail to see the distinction between a state registered boat and a USCG documented vessel. A documented vessel is ship of a sovereign nation. A registered boat may only operate in local waters and cannot be operated in foreign waters. Because a documented vessel is an extension of national sovereignty in the United States only US citizens and US corporations with a majority of US owners may document a vessel.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by scottgledhill

Dockhead, you fail to see the distinction between a state registered boat and a USCG documented vessel. A documented vessel is ship of a sovereign nation. A registered boat may only operate in local waters and cannot be operated in foreign waters. Because a documented vessel is an extension of national sovereignty in the United States only US citizens and US corporations with a majority of US owners may document a vessel.

I wonder how many start registered boats cam be found in the Bahamas?

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by wolfgal

It is my understanding that US citizenship is a requirement of obtaining Delaware registry.

No, its not. US citizenship is only required for Federal Documentation. This why there are such a larger number of foreign owned vessels registered in Delaware.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by Cadence

In US waters you needn't fly anything. Those no.s on the bow are all you need.
Outside the US in foreign waters fly an American flag. It seems the larger issue may be Del. registration for a non citizen. There was a thread on that not long ago. I think that came out to residency.

No State numbers on the bow of a Federally Documented vessel.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by Pizzazz

A related question: my current boat is US documented and owned by my wife who is a US citizen. I am not a citizen yet, just a permanent resident. What flag should I fly and can I go from Southern California to Mexico and back if my wife is not on board?

It seems the answer is negative at least until I become a US citizen.

Thank you,
SV Pizzazz

The country of registry flag applies to the vessel, not those aboard. The vessel should fly the US Flag regardless of who is aboard....especially if not in USA waters.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

You are correct.

However, a U.S. corporation has U.S. citizenship, even if it has 100% foreign owners.

A Delaware corporation has Delaware residence.

So Bob's your uncle.

The Coast Guard requirement that the OWNERS of a U.S. company which owns a boat ALSO be U.S. citizens is very unusual.


EDIT: Actually, you CAN document a vessel with the U.S. Coast Guard with foreign owners. I just looked it up. The requirement, to be exact, is that the Chairman, CEO and a majority of the Board are U.S. citizens. The issue is control, not ownership. It seems that the rule about 75% ownership by citizens only applies to commercial vessels.

See: https://usvesseldocumentation.org/faq/

So I would think it would be reasonably straightforward to set up a company and hire U.S. citizens (I think two is enough in most states, maybe even one) to manage it on behalf of the foreign owner. This kind of service is not that expensive.

If you are a foreigner and already have your boat in a Delaware corp, you would just need to change the articles to have a one-man Board and hire someone. Then you file for Coast Guard documentation on behalf of the Delaware corporation.

Nope. A foreigner can indeed directly register a vessel in Delaware. Brazillian friend did it. He used a vessel registration service so presumably they know their business.

[belizesailor]

Ive seen plenty of SA flags out cruising, but dont know how their registration works.

If you are gonna cross International borders legally then the vessel must have registration somewhere. Ive never crossed a border in a boat and not been asked for registration (well...only a few times, but no officials were involved &#128518.

[Jim Cate]

A registered boat may only operate in local waters and cannot be operated in foreign waters.

Completely untrue. I've been sailing my state registered vessel in foreign waters for 32 years now, visited in some 13 different nations. No problems with officials resulting from lack of documentation. Reportedly some Caribbean nations feel differently, but in the South Pacific, all is ok.

Jim

[danfarrell]

The legal requirement for licensed yachts to fly the Yacht Ensign that was part of United States statute (46 U.S.C. section 109) was repealed by the Vessel Documentation Act of 1980 (Public Law 96–594), which removed several legal provisions pertaining to the by-then very rare category of "licensed yachts" and treated all documented recreational vessels the same. Nevertheless, owing to its long usage by all U.S. yachts, as well as the fact that the freedom-from-clearance privilege first extended to "licensed yachts" in 1848 had long since been extended to all U.S. pleasure craft regardless of whether they are federally documented or state numbered (see 19 U.S.C. sec. 1441), the yacht ensign is widely flown by many U.S. yachts and pleasure boats in U.S. waters today, continuing a tradition that dates back to the mid-nineteenth century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ensign..._United_States

The yacht ensign used to mean something special, namely that the yacht didn't need to clear customs when traveling between US ports without leaving the country. Nowadays, you don't need to fly a flag in the US at all, nor do you need to check into customs when sailing between US ports solely within US waters. The yacht ensign is classy, but meaningless, and not an appropriate substitute for the US flag. It's an interesting read!

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Completely untrue. I've been sailing my state registered vessel in foreign waters for 32 years now, visited in some 13 different nations. No problems with officials resulting from lack of documentation. Reportedly some Caribbean nations feel differently, but in the South Pacific, all is ok.

Jim

Many do cruise on State registrations. I think the USCG Documentation form is just more widely familiar to officials and thus less likely to raise eyebrows...Ive seen some State registrations that arent much more than a cash register receipt.

[Viking Sailor]

All seafaring nations have determined the requirements for registering and identifying vessels subject to their laws and international accords.

Vessels are normally not allowed to be registered concurrently in more then one nation.

To identify the nation a vessel is registered in the vessel is generally required to fly the ensign/flag/colors of the registering nation.

The United States has a federal vessel registration system that meets the requirements of federal laws and international accords. However, the U.S. Constitution gives certain rights to states. These state rights allow for the registration, governing, and taxation of vessels operating within state administered waters. Further, it is a common requirement that a vessel change registration within 90 days of when it moves to a new state. State registered vessels should fly the U.S. Ensign while in U.S. territorial waters.

As I see it, for an individual to registered a vessel in the U.S. under the federal system it must me owned by a U.S. citizen. This is the only way that this vessel, under U.S. law, may fly the U.S. Ensign internationally.

I suspect that some other nations realize that a U.S. citizen that owns a vessel with state registration meets the requirements for federal registration and just lets it go.

The OP should probably seek out a nation where he meets their requirements and register.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by scottgledhill

Dockhead, you fail to see the distinction between a state registered boat and a USCG documented vessel. A documented vessel is ship of a sovereign nation. A registered boat . .. cannot be operated in foreign waters.

This is obviously false. Do you mean MAY not? Is there a law which forbids a person with a state registered boat from leaving the country with it? I doubt it, but I will be glad to be educated if I'm wrong.

Originally Posted by scottgledhill

Because a documented vessel is an extension of national sovereignty in the United States only US citizens and US corporations with a majority of US owners may document a vessel.

Both of these propositions are false. A documented vessel is NOT an "extension of sovereignty." Vessels have nationality, like people do -- that does not make either of them anything sovereign.


And it is not true that "only US citizens and US corporations with a majority of US owners may document a vessel" -- a documented vessel, so long as it is a recreational vessel, may be owned even 100% by foreign citizens, provided they own it through a U.S. corporation which is controlled by U.S. officers and directors. Ownership is important only if the vessel has a coastwise or fisheries endorsement, and in that case, a majority is not enough -- it's 75%.

This was mentioned earlier in the thread and you can read about it on the USCG Documentation Center website.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by belizesailor

Nope. A foreigner can indeed directly register a vessel in Delaware. Brazillian friend did it. He used a vessel registration service so presumably they know their business.

The service is likely knowingly gaming the system and it works as long as no one challenges it (kind of like if you speed and don't get pulled over it doesn't mean you can legally speed).

A corporate owned USCG Documented boat must be majority controlled by US Citizens.

He can own the corporation which owns the boat but he can't control the corporation...assuming he is the sole owner/operator of the boat and corporate board doesn't play any real role in the control and use of the boat other than to obtain USCG Documentation, he may get away with it but he obtained the documents illegitimately as they clearly are not in a controlling position.

Of course, it's likely a low priority for the law to chase this kind of thing down as it's a victimless crime.