A non US citizen with Delaware registration flys what flag?

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by RPZ

Sheesh, a free country. How do I become an Honorary SA citizen so I don't need to pay for registration of my boat?

Try selling her in the US.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by RPZ

For the purposes of international law it is still a United States vessel. In U.S. territorial waters it doesn't matter. Out on the open seas or entering the waters of a foreign nation it does matter.

That is certainly the practice, but do you actually have a legal reference for that (Delaware registration = USA boat)? Ive never seen it.

[boatman61]

LMAO... My Hunter 37c was registered in the UK and flew the Red Duster.. but as far as US Customs was concerned it would always be a US boat.. just its owner could never be a US citizen..
Has anyone informed Delaware citizens that they are not US citizens..

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by boatman61

LMAO... My Hunter 37c was registered in the UK and flew the Red Duster.. but as far as US Customs was concerned it would always be a US boat.. just its owner could never be a US citizen..
Has anyone informed Delaware citizens that they are not US citizens.. [emoji3]

What did you do to get banned from becoming a USA? [emoji6]

[RPZ]

Originally Posted by Cadence

Try selling her in the US.

If I was able to legally fly an SA flag I wouldn't care less.

[RPZ]

Originally Posted by belizesailor

That is certainly the practice, but do you actually have a legal reference for that (Delaware registration = USA boat)? Ive never seen it.

To my knowledge there is no regulation since there is no requirement to register your boat with the USCG.

It is a US boat by default. If you are hailed by a naval or coast guard vessel on the high seas, or in foreign waters where they are permitted concurrent jurisdiction to board US vessels, what country do you think they are going to assign to your boat for the purposes of jurisdiction? "Delaware"?

The States are political as well as geographical subdivisions of the Nation called the United States, with certain sovereign rights. One of them is to title and register boats. Not like countries that only have one national level registry and title issuing authority .

If you sail your State titled and registered boat to foreign waters it is going to be regarded as a US boat.

It's about like shipping your privately owned car bearing California title and plates to Europe for a vacation.

[Warren Drifter]

I have seen many Deleware registered boats flying the stars & strips and owned by non-US owners especially in the Mediteranean sea in places like Cyprus and Turkey. Most all avoiding the EU tax.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by Warren Drifter

I have seen many Deleware registered boats flying the stars & strips and owned by non-US owners especially in the Mediteranean sea in places like Cyprus and Turkey. Most all avoiding the EU tax.

Yes, true in many other venues too.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by RPZ

If I was able to legally fly an SA flag I wouldn't care less.

As I understand it South Africa has no registration/ documentation? I bought a boat for a SA couple which I never tried to do either. The non-profit I gave it to had a hell of a time convincing the US authorities of that from what I understand.

[hellosailor]

Actually, I'd bet that a Delaware citizen is not necessarily a US citizen. In some states, you may become a citizen OF THAT STATE within 30-90 days of continual residence there, even if they call that a "resident" more often than a "citizen". In the Northeast states, our terribly obscure militia laws sometimes put the burden of militia service on you along with that status of becoming a citizen.

For a boat with US State registration, "obviously" it is a "US" boat. Except, what is obvious does not matter to a bureaucrat. If their country says you must have papers from a sovereign state, then that's national papers and "state" registration won't do. Anyone want to take a poll of what, some 150 nations and see just what their rules all are?

Start with Title 10 USC and somewhere scattered in there, I think you'll find some of the remaining few rights and burdens to documented vessels in the US. And their crews.

When you THINK you see, or speak to, some foreigner claiming they are getting away with documenting a US flagged vessel and keeping it somewhere far away in order to cheat some other tax man....Remember, all that you KNOW is they have just told you that they are cheating the law. There's no reason to think their "US documentation" isn't a cheat and a lie also. When you file for documentation, do you really think the feds run a citizenship check? Do you really think they check the citizenship of stockholders in a corporation? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe anyone can file anything--and the only problem is if you get caught.
Wouldn't be the first time, place, or agency with policies like that. In fact, just as the various state tax men woke up in the 1970's to "Delaware" registrations....it wouldn't be hard for some hungry jurisdictions to start asking for proof of citizenship.
This is like the game (that worked fine for 30+ years) of having your paychecks sent to an offshore bank, and declaring zero income. Spending it by an offshore credit card, so you showed no spending or income. Worked fine until it got so popular that banking laws were changed, 5? years ago. And then, oh, right, fines and penalties.

[Kelkara]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

For a boat with US State registration, "obviously" it is a "US" boat. Except, what is obvious does not matter to a bureaucrat. If their country says you must have papers from a sovereign state, then that's national papers and "state" registration won't do. Anyone want to take a poll of what, some 150 nations and see just what their rules all are?

The poll has been done ... it's called the UNCLOS most countries play pretty close to those rules ... it will have a definition of a vessel's nationality ... US documentation exists to satisfy that definition. How state registration fits in I don't know, but unlike documentation it is not designed to prove nationality to a foreign official ... if they're not satisfied with your registration then you will be classified as a "vessel without nationality" whatever that implies.

[RPZ]

Originally Posted by Cadence

As I understand it South Africa has no registration/ documentation? I bought a boat for a SA couple which I never tried to do either. The non-profit I gave it to had a hell of a time convincing the US authorities of that from what I understand.

Some ideas. Sworn affadavit declaring ownership filed in some jurisdiction in SA, or some SA certificate of title. Perhaps a letter response (in response to a query) to the SA equivalent of the SA Coast Guard on their letterhead paper concerning the no need to registration. And maybe keep the phone numbers to the SA embassy/consulate of the country your visiting handy. Lastly printouts of the pertaining SA law concerning that boats require no registration.

[RPZ]

Originally Posted by Kelkara

The poll has been done ... it's called the UNCLOS most countries play pretty close to those rules ... it will have a definition of a vessel's nationality ... US documentation exists to satisfy that definition. How state registration fits in I don't know, but unlike documentation it is not designed to prove nationality to a foreign official ... if they're not satisfied with your registration then you will be classified as a "vessel without nationality" whatever that implies.

Perhaps better would be a compilation of boaters who have visited foreign countries in State only registered boats and their experiences. I have never seen or heard of anyone running into a problem but it would be interesting to see what experiences people have had.

A boat without nationality is really only a jurisdiction issue for certain things. Like say the US Coast Guard wanting to board a US vessel in the territorial waters of a foreign country in which they have agreement to do so. Or the foreign government wanting to pay closer attention to vessels from certain countries entering their waters. In the absence of boat nationality, they will likely simply focus on the occupants, and searching the boat for contraband.

There are also many things that are commercial code and have nothing to do with a private vessel

[hellosailor]

There are something like 157 "signatories" to UNCLOS but it has only been ratified by less than half of those, including the US. So it has no legal standing even to half of the nations that have signed it.

On boaters' experiences...All that tells you is which border guard got up on the right side of the bed, on that particular morning. One refused to stamp my passport (poor fellow probably had sold his ink on the black market) which technically left me open to charges of illegal entry and espionage. You know, that Cold War thing? Another took my expired passport without any complaint and just said "Yeah, you look like him. Just a bit grayer though, huh?" If you are polite and can give them a laugh (which most folks don't) a lot will just wave you past. In other places, they come equipped with a permanent scowl and a checklist, and if the Pope came through on a paddleboard, they'd STILL insist on full formalities.

There's still some value in knowing the laws, and knowing that you're in compliance. Experiences do count--but you can't rely on them for sure passage.

If you meet the same nice fellow who asked me "What is the purpose of your visit?" to which I usually reply "Invasion and conquest, but if you line up all the women, cattle, and gold I can just pick them up on my way out, we can skip all the messy pillaging and burning and sacking?" I wouldn't bet that you get the same "Go ahead. Have a nice trip." that I did. (Oh, and they lie, they NEVER have the women, cattle, or gold lined up for me when I leave.)

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by RPZ

Some ideas. Sworn affadavit declaring ownership filed in some jurisdiction in SA, or some SA certificate of title. Perhaps a letter response (in response to a query) to the SA equivalent of the SA Coast Guard on their letterhead paper concerning the no need to registration. And maybe keep the phone numbers to the SA embassy/consulate of the country your visiting handy. Lastly printouts of the pertaining SA law concerning that boats require no registration.

I'm assuming it got resolve, donation is something for nothing. I was just curious if in fact SA had no governmental registration. As I took it, it was more of a yacht club registration. Just curiosity on my part but maybe helpful to someone else. maybe someone from SA has the answer.