Another Schengen Thread

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

In the big picture, your USD$ are probably a lot less than you think. If there were millions of foreign nationals coming over spending $5000/month on average and the only reason they didn't stay and spend more was because of visa rules, you would see the rules change.

Reality is, there are probably only a few thousand crusing boats and most can't get away for more than 3 months at a time anyway. Of those that can/would stay longer, the bulk probably live an inexpensive lifestyle anchoring out (ie: not spending a lot of money). At the other end of the spectrum, the very wealthy, likely have thier lawyers arrange long stay visas.

It's not that they don't want your money. Its just that the narrow slice who spends $3,000/month in the EU just isn't big enough to get the govt's attention.

The informaiton is a bit sketchy but there are long stay visas available but they want proof of a pretty healthy amount of cash in the bank that a lot of cruisers will have difficulty coming up with.

Understand quite well that we IE long term cruisers are a very small minority and fall through the legal cracks in many ways and many places. It's just the nature of the lifestyle.

I have researched long stay visas a good bit, including first hand reports from US citizens that have applied for and eventually received one and a close friend that recently moved to Germany. While these visas are available in theory, the actual practice is a lot more difficult.

[goboatingnow]

Skipmac is entirely correct

there is no extension or long stay SCHENGEN Visa. The number and type of the Schengen visas are set out in the Accord.

What there is are some EU countries that have longer stay visas that predate the harmonised Schengen visa , these include work , study and cultural appreciation visa. Few if any, in reality are suitable for long term cruisers.

It is what it is folks

Dave

[jstevens]

"Regarding an extension for a Schengen visa, everything I have read on that said it is impossible to get an extension for tourism purposes."

You can get an extension of the 90 day visa for the country in which you are located to allow wintering over without leaving Schengen. I started the process in 2006 when I was wintering in Cascais, PT. The Portuguese even have a website that lays out the requirements and provides the forms (Portal SEF).
There was a lot of difficulty and I got a lot of miss-information before I finally made contact with a person at the SEF and was directed to the website. I had assembled all the paper work, but then was told I could only submit the application for the extension during the next to last week of my 90 day tourist Visa. That was very close to my planned departure so I never submitted the application. That's the short story, here's the long one (Staying Legal in Portugal).
The SEF officer I dealt with led me to believe there would be no problem with my getting an extension so long as I jumped through all of their bureaucratic hoops. I was told that the extension would be recognized by other Schengen countries, but obviously never tested that assertion. Again, this was 2006 and things do change. Also that was for a winter stay in a marina, not actively cruising through Schengen.

John

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Exactly my point. I may be able to get some "free" days with a long stay visa in some country like Germany but I can foresee a problem trying to explain that to a customs agent in Portugal.

But you will not encounter a customs or immigration agent if you enter Portugal from another Schengen country.

More or less true, as long as you never have to show your passport to anyone official you can probably stay inside Europe indefinitely. The problem will come if you try to fly out of an airport in Europe. As soon as they check your passport for departure you will have a problem, perhaps a very big problem.

[/quote]
But if you have a residence permit for a year for, for example, Germany, there should not be an issue staying for a year in the Schengen area. That is what I mean here. If you want to stay longer Schengenland go for a longer residence permit in a Schengen country that will give you one.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by jstevens

"Regarding an extension for a Schengen visa, everything I have read on that said it is impossible to get an extension for tourism purposes."

You can get an extension of the 90 day visa for the country in which you are located to allow wintering over without leaving Schengen. I started the process in 2006 when I was wintering in Cascais, PT. The Portuguese even have a website that lays out the requirements and provides the forms (Portal SEF).
There was a lot of difficulty and I got a lot of miss-information before I finally made contact with a person at the SEF and was directed to the website. I had assembled all the paper work, but then was told I could only submit the application for the extension during the next to last week of my 90 day tourist Visa. That was very close to my planned departure so I never submitted the application. That's the short story, here's the long one (Staying Legal in Portugal).
The SEF officer I dealt with led me to believe there would be no problem with my getting an extension so long as I jumped through all of their bureaucratic hoops. I was told that the extension would be recognized by other Schengen countries, but obviously never tested that assertion. Again, this was 2006 and things do change. Also that was for a winter stay in a marina, not actively cruising through Schengen.

John

You were applying for a long stay Portuguese visa. You were not extending your Schengen one , as there is no such thing.

Dave

[jstevens]

Dave,
I believe you are correct, but I'm not sure you have clarified this discussion. AFAICT, I traveled to the a Schengen country (Portugal) under the reciprocal agreement between the USA and Portugal for tourist travel (90 days). I never applied for or received a Schengen Visa. However, because Portugal is a Schengen signatory that tourist Visa allowed me to travel to other Schengen countries during my 90-day stay without having to go through Passport Control. If I had completed my application for an extension to my stay in Portugal I believe that extension would have been honored by the other Schengen countries.
I believe a person need only apply for a Schengen Visa if they are citizens of a country that does not have a reciprocal agreement with all of the Schengen countries.
So while you are probably correct that a Schengen Visa cannot be extended, that does not appear to be applicable to most of the non-EU cruisers who are in Schengen waters.

John

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by jstevens

Dave,
I believe you are correct, but I'm not sure you have clarified this discussion. AFAICT, I traveled to the a Schengen country (Portugal) under the reciprocal agreement between the USA and Portugal for tourist travel (90 days). I never applied for or received a Schengen Visa. However, because Portugal is a Schengen signatory that tourist Visa allowed me to travel to other Schengen countries during my 90-day stay without having to go through Passport Control. If I had completed my application for an extension to my stay in Portugal I believe that extension would have been honored by the other Schengen countries.
I believe a person need only apply for a Schengen Visa if they are citizens of a country that does not have a reciprocal agreement with all of the Schengen countries.
So while you are probably correct that a Schengen Visa cannot be extended, that does not appear to be applicable to most of the non-EU cruisers who are in Schengen waters.

John

Hi John

As I understand it, if you are from a country with reciprocal agreements with the Schengen countries you don't apply for or receive an formal visa, it's just automatic under the Schengen treaty that you show up, you're in the program for 90 days, but only 90 days in 180.

As far as travel throughout Schengen under a long stay visa from one specific country, that I think will apply under the reciprocity within the Schengen countries. Here I'm not so sure how it would work and what might happen if you received a long stay visa in Portugal but flew out of another country. I would hope that showing the long stay paperwork from Portugal would answer any questions but?

[jstevens]

"As far as travel throughout Schengen under a long stay visa from one specific country, that I think will apply under the reciprocity within the Schengen countries."

Skipmac, that goes against the whole reason for a Schengen Treaty - AFAIK there are no unique agreements between individual countries with regard to border control. If one Schengen country allows a person within their boundaries that person can cross the borders of all Schengen countries unchallenged.

It is confusing. We have a lot of people (like myself) from outside the Schengen group who relate our real world experiences and a lot of people from within the Schengen group who don't have to deal with the real issues all offering opinions and advice. That advice is worth what we charge for it.
I will never offer advise to cruisers on dealing with the US Customs and Immigration as that is outside of my knowledge base and experience.


John

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by jstevens

"As far as travel throughout Schengen under a long stay visa from one specific country, that I think will apply under the reciprocity within the Schengen countries."

Skipmac, that goes against the whole reason for a Schengen Treaty - AFAIK there are no unique agreements between individual countries with regard to border control. If one Schengen country allows a person within their boundaries that person can cross the borders of all Schengen countries unchallenged.

It is confusing. We have a lot of people (like myself) from outside the Schengen group who relate our real world experiences and a lot of people from within the Schengen group who don't have to deal with the real issues all offering opinions and advice. That advice is worth what we charge for it.
I will never offer advise to cruisers on dealing with the US Customs and Immigration as that is outside of my knowledge base and experience.


John

Yes confusing. But how else could it work. As you point out, once you're in Schengen region, you're there and no border controls. And it is a fact that several countries offer long stay visas for various reasons. So, if you get a long stay visa say for study, which seems to be pretty easy, then how could you not be allowed to travel within the rest of the zone?

As far advise, there's lots of internet experts offering free advise but real world experience is gold. Unfortunately in this case it seems like the world is changing and easy going attitudes of a few years ago may be changing as well. A couple of years ago I would probably have gone to Europe with a play it by ear non-plan. In a couple of years when I plan to actually go that may be a foolish idea (or not). For now, I'm going to check out the rules carefully and be prepared to adhere closely until experience and circumstances or a legal loophole dictate otherwise.

So thank you for the information. Not discounting your experiences in the least but am not certain I could do it the way you did. Hope I didn't miss the boat on easy EU cruising.

[valhalla360]

A lot of technicalities but basically when you enter the schengen area you get a visa. They don't make you apply or pay for it if you and recieve it automatically simply by entering the schengen area.

With the long stay visas from individual countries, technically, you are covered under the schengen rules if you leave the base country but from a practical point of view, they have no means to track you. If you are traveling and touring europe, the odds of someone catching on are negligible. But if you keep your boat in another country and stay on if long term, the odds are still probably low but it starts becoming much easier to prove you aren't following schengen rules. If you get caught up in an accident or criminal issues while spending lots of time in other areas, there is the chance they could trace you location to show you violated schengen rules.

Odds of being caught are small but if you are trying to meet the letter of the law, a long stay visa for an individual country means you must spend most of your time in that country.

[Kiwi303]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

What there is are some EU countries that have longer stay visas that predate the harmonised Schengen visa , these include work , study and cultural appreciation visa. Few if any, in reality are suitable for long term cruisers.

An excellent example of that is Hungary and NZ, Hungary is part of the Schengen zone, but Hungary has a pre-existing visa agreement with NZ which means that NZers who have used their 90 days in 180 in the rest of the Schengen zone can enter Hungary and stay a further 90 days for a total of 180 days in the Schengen zone. However, Hungary is landlocked, so there's no opportunity to cruise, meaning it is good for a cycle tour from western France to eastern Hungary, but not much good for a boatie in the Med.

[LakeSuperior]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

But you will not encounter a customs or immigration agent if you enter Portugal from another Schengen country.

Portugal was the only country where I met a customs/immigration agent at the marina that questioned our length of stay in Schengen. He was the only one in all of the Schengen countries that mentioned Schengen. We entered from Spain.

Are you making the above statement up?

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by LakeSuperior

Portugal was the only country where I met a customs/immigration agent at the marina that questioned our length of stay in Schengen. He was the only one in all of the Schengen countries that mentioned Schengen. We entered from Spain.

Are you making the above statement up?

What flag are you flying, and did you have the Q flag out? What might have attracted his attention?

I arrived in Spain on a sailboat from the UK in september last year. We had a Russian on board who had to get his passport stamped. It was a real hassle, and took two days, to find someone who was actually interested in taking notice of us. And we were coming from "outside" Schengen...
Schengen means "free movement". Yachts going from one Schengen country to another can (and do) ignore that they've just crossed a border. The same when travelling on land or air. I sometimes cross four intra Schengen borders in a day, and haven't shown a passport at them in ages. I flew from Zürich to Berlin without showing a piece of ID, just my boarding pass when entering airside, and then again at the gate.

What I do notice however is that checks at external borders have become stricter in recent years. When travelling to Croatia I usually go by train. From Switzerland to Croatia you first go through Liechtenstein, then Austria, then Slovenia, all without much fuss, the train doesn't even stop to swap engines anymore. Then at the Croatian border the train stops for 20 minutes, and border guards with mobile computers (and big dogs!) come on board, and check everyone's papers...

[LakeSuperior]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

What flag are you flying, and did you have the Q flag out? What might have attracted his attention?

I arrived in Spain on a sailboat from the UK in september last year. We had a Russian on board who had to get his passport stamped. It was a real hassle, and took two days, to find someone who was actually interested in taking notice of us. And we were coming from "outside" Schengen...
Schengen means "free movement". Yachts going from one Schengen country to another can (and do) ignore that they've just crossed a border. The same when travelling on land or air. I sometimes cross four intra Schengen borders in a day, and haven't shown a passport at them in ages. I flew from Zürich to Berlin without showing a piece of ID, just my boarding pass when entering airside, and then again at the gate.

What I do notice however is that checks at external borders have become stricter in recent years. When travelling to Croatia I usually go by train. From Switzerland to Croatia you first go through Liechtenstein, then Austria, then Slovenia, all without much fuss, the train doesn't even stop to swap engines anymore. Then at the Croatian border the train stops for 20 minutes, and border guards with mobile computers (and big dogs!) come on board, and check everyone's papers...

Based on your above explanation how do you draw the conclusion that in Portugal one would never encounter customs or immigration officials in the ports and harbors? This is just another example where internet advice is worth what you pay for it!!

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by LakeSuperior

Based on your above explanation how do you draw the conclusion that in Portugal one would never encounter customs or immigration officials in the ports and harbors? This is just another example where internet advice is worth what you pay for it!!

You can of course encounter immigration officials everywhere. They aren't glued to their desks...

I am just basing myself on official advice, which is that if you enter a Schengen country on a sailboat from another Schengen country you are supposed to do exactly nothing, and that nothing special is supposed to happen.

Of course, since people from outside Schengen also arrive at Portuguese ports immigration officials are stationed there. Hence my question what might have attracted the attention of one in this case.

Suppose for example that someone gets a 1 year visa for France. This person flies to France, and gets a French entry stamp. Entitlement to stay a year in France then starts.
Technically for other destinations the 90 out of 180 rule still applies. However, there is no way for this rule to be enforced.
Suppose that this person then sails from France via Northern Spain to Portugal. Since the boat is staying within Schengen the Q flag must not be flown when arriving in Portugal. If a immigration officer were to come for an inspection he can of course make remarks about the 90/180 rule, but he really has no way to check if the rule^s been obeyed...