Any Legitimate Reason for FWC to...

[OutOfControl]

Originally Posted by clownfishsydney

For those of who do not know, what is FWC? I gather F = Florida, but what is the rest of it?

Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission

You can report Employee Misconduct here.

[Jammer Six]

You guys need to meet some cops.

There are all kinds of reasons why cops speed, blackout and pull other dirty tricks. You won't get any traction accusing a State Patrolman of speeding. It just won't fly.

One friend who is a cop will change your mind and your point of view about a lot of things.

I don't know what powers the FWC holds, (I didn't find it on the link you posted) but what it comes down to is this: if they have arrest powers, they're cops. The only statement I found was that one of their missions is law enforcement.

There's a gray area, for instance meter maids, but arguing with one is a really bad idea. So is telling one that they're parked illegally. You won't get any traction there, either, and they have a hot line to real cops, and then the situation will deteriorate rapidly.

[hellosailor]

", not just occasionally, but ALL THE TIME"
Peace officers are not allowed to violate ANY laws while on duty, except in emergency or in exceptional situations, like sneaking up on bad guys. They will claim they need to sneak up and run dark. You can file a complaint on it, but especially in Florida you'll find The Blue Wall closes up and a peace officer can do no evil.

I think I was reading up on something recently about the number of folks shot and killed by LEOs in FL over the last ten years. After a "thorough investigation" the AG found that every last one of them was justified. And we're talking about enough bodies to fill a train.

If you can document the vessel operating in the dark, you might file a formal written complaint to the USCG. Just don't expect a lot of changes, even from that side.

[onestepcsy37]

FWC started out being game wardens. Over the years, led by some overzealous nazis, they have managed to acquire powers normally held by better trained state police officers. At one point they demanded that the state give them authority to issue traffic tickets to vehicles they might encounter on the highway while travelling from one swamp to another. I think the florida state police talked the legislature out of that one.

[Jammer Six]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

I think I was reading up on something recently about the number of folks shot and killed by LEOs in FL over the last ten years. After a "thorough investigation" the AG found that every last one of them was justified. And we're talking about enough bodies to fill a train.

I think we read some of the same authors: I was just reading about how the 2nd SS Panzer Division detonated an A bomb at Kursk.

[onestepcsy37]

Of course you are joking. If the Germans had an atomic bomb in 1943, the battle of Kursk, the entire war actually, would have turned out much differently.

For some interesting reading on the subject, look up Operation Alsos, and an American officer named Bernie Pash. The Germans, who led the world in quantum physics at the outset of the war, made almost no progress thereafter. In fact, as Pash discovered, they had not even reached the point in their research where they would have discovered just how difficult it would be to build a bomb. He attributed this to their unorganized research attempts, with many small groups each trying to curry Hitler's favor.

One of the outcomes of Pash's discoveries was that in March 1945 a couple hundred B-17's were sent to bomb a single factory near the city of Oranienberg in eastern Germany, which he suspected of being a uranium processing plant. He wasn't worried about the Germans using it; but he knew the Russians would get there before us and he didn't want them to get it either.

Just to stay on subject, the FWC didn't get it either...

[smj]

Originally Posted by onestepcsy37

FWC started out being game wardens. Over the years, led by some overzealous nazis, they have managed to acquire powers normally held by better trained state police officers. At one point they demanded that the state give them authority to issue traffic tickets to vehicles they might encounter on the highway while travelling from one swamp to another. I think the florida state police talked the legislature out of that one.

I'm pretty sure that game wardens have as much or probably more power than any other type of law enforcement.

[IdoraKeeper]

Well then claim the were unlit gator poachers....it like a sweater... Just pull on one thread and the whole thing will unravel. Cruiser anarchy in FLA.

[soverel]

Ive seen uscg go without lights here. There are laws to protect people from leo profiling. If they are routinely in an area used by dinks in anchorage i would demand access to the public records of patrol activity in say the mooring field. If patrols disproportionate...bingo

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[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by smj

I'm pretty sure that game wardens have as much or probably more power than any other type of law enforcement.

They do in Ga, that is a fact, but they almost never misuse it. Game Wardens have an enormous amount of authority, but I've never seen it abused, at least not here.

It was after 911 when the CBP and Homeland security was created and simply HUGE amounts of money thrown around building barrier fences around tiny little country airports etc when this whole policing us against a non-existent threat just got out of hand.
I saw the CBP exhibit their Predator drone at Oshkosh a couple of years ago, and not the little Predator either, they had the Reaper, what do they need these things for?
At Sun-n-Fun a couple of years ago they were showing off their speed boats and Armored Personnel Carriers, while their Blackhawk pilots were walking around in desert flight suits and carrying sidearms.
What do they need Armored Personnel Carriers for?
FWC keeps their smaller boats whatever they are called in my Marina, the Center consoles with two 300 HP Yamahas and they get fuel there. You know they burn over 100 gls per day, per boat?
The Sheriffs boat that whizzed by me in Miami had triple 300 HP Verado's, I guess you can't do Police work in a smaller whaler with a single 70 HP or something?

[hellosailor]

a64-
"Watercop" RIBs and small craft have to be musclecars, so to speak. Back in the late 80's when "Fleet Week" was a new concept, a private club's high speed RIB accidentally intruded on the USN security zone around some of the fleet, and NYPD Harbor Patrol and USCG took off after it. Except, they were like Keystone Kops, they only had "reasonable" power and they were lost in no time. (Not intentionally, the RIB driver was simply hustling to his next location, unaware of it all.)
And if you've ever seen a watercop trying to catch up to some jetskis who were doing something foolish like wake-jumping...They need musclecars. They need the raw horsepower to catch whatever else is out there. I don't begrudge them that.

Of course, some of them didn't listen to the whole quote from Spiderman:
"With great power, comes great responsibility."

In the end, they are all only administrative agents. Armed, but still administrative agents, just like poll inspectors and building inspectors. "We the people" are their managers and it is our job to occasionally restraint them, retrain them, admonish them, and if only they get it right, praise them. It's a hard job, but then again, if it was easy we'd all be LEOs, wouldn't we?

[weavis]

Without going into details, I was once detained in a totally illegal manner by Law Enforcement Agents in Florida.

After several hours I informed them that the matter would be taken higher. I was told, and I quote.

"Well sir, we have done what we have done and you can pursue it the good old fashioned American way and Sue our Asses."

I realised there and then that America was lost to the values that we thought were once in place. We dont have a police force any more. Its a quasi military outfit with more powers than it ought to have. Occasionally a battle is won but not the war.

[a64pilot]

OK, maybe one pursuit vehicle on call, I get that, but not all vehicles need to be muscle cars.
What they do is race around the bay all day at speeds above 45 kts, then every afternoon hit the fuel dock at about 125 gl. ea. at $4.40 a gl.
You never see one just on plane, they are always running hard like there was some emergency to get to, and it's usually too hot to just sit.
We are over policed, maybe need more beat cops in urban areas, I don't know, but there are simply just too many agencies to protect us from a non-existent threat.
I can name a half dozen I bet. How many can you name?

[hellosailor]

"OK, maybe one pursuit vehicle on call, I get that, but not all vehicles need to be muscle cars."

Maybe you remember a tif that got in the national Nooze a year or two ago, a Florida Highway Patrol (FHP) officer pulled over a cop from a different agency after a high speed pursuit on the highway? She (FHP) said he's got no right to be running at that speed on this road. And she got sanctioned for it, initially.

So needing the power, versus using it? Problematic. BUt as every pd psychiatrist will tell you, the profiles of thugs and bullies and cops are all terribly similar, and it is hard to screen the one out from the other.

Once upon a time, I had to catch up with someone who "just" had a ten minute lead on me, on the highway. Can I assume that as a pilot you have done the math for how much faster you have to be, to overtake anyone traveling at speed? That's why they need the capability for an "all hands" response to have fast boats even if they should not run at those speeds every day.

When unexpected things happen, like the plane that landed in the Hudson?

But police agencies suffer from the same problem as many businesses, poor management. Promotions aren't always based on management skills. The NYSP aka "NYS Troopers" found a simple way to restrain troopers from running too fast on donut runs. First time speeding or using the red light without authorization? One week suspension without pay. Second time? One month without pay. Third time? There is no third time, period.

And who's at the top of management? Right, the folks who have neither the time, patience, inclination, or skills to simply speak up and file a complaint. Which may be (may be) why only something like 20% of our population were given the right to vote, when voting here started. (Got a tissue? I think I got some politics on my shoe again.(G)

[Dulcesuenos]

These same fwc sneak around in the woods to catch hunters, why would it surprise anyone that they do the same on the water. The irony is if you hit a unlit Fwc boat at night you have to call another FWC boat to report the accident. Uscg doesnt handle accidents or collisions. So who's side do you think the reporting officer is going to take???

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