Are these Actual 'Marine Standards and Practices' Requirements?

[Sailor647]

All great comments. Thanks for the input. I appreciate it.

[Cheechako]

It's very common for the insurance company to ask you to certify you have fixed the things that came up on inspection. Just sign it.

[Gudgeon]

I do not let the surveyor send the survey to my insurance company with out reviewing it and working through issues as noted. The surveyor should be able to provide you a reference for each recommendation. Remember you are paying for the survey not your insurance company.

[sailorboy1]

If the insurance company was really concerned don't you think they would want another letter from the surveyor after saying that you did it?

The real issue in this thread is that surveyors write stuff that are "suggestions" and not facts or requirements and then the insurance co wants you to do them. If the surveyor "suggested" you paint the boat purple the insurance would expect you now to paint it!

[Clivevon]

A view from this side of the water:
First. Uberrime fides. Latin for Utmost good faith. A simple principle which underpins the entire insurance industry. It means the policyholder has a duty to act in utmost good faith (please note the word utmost) when disclosing all information necessary for the insurers to assess the risks they are taking on by insuring you. Any failure of disclosure potentially just lets them off the hook. My insurance premiums of all types are always quite high because I always make a point of very full disclosure, which means the insurers realise I have left them no loopholes, so they charge me more. I'm OK with that - I just do not see the point of paying anything at all for an insurance policy which wont pay out if I have to make a claim.
Second. Lifejackets. Here in UK I am not familiar with the term "Type 1 (or 2, or 3) lifejacket". A lifejacket is a lifejacket - a device which will reliably turn an unconscious person face up in rough water. If it wont do that, its not a lifejacket, its a buoyancy aid. We go to sea, so we only carry lifejackets on board. And we wear them at all times in the cockpit or on deck, because they are useless unless worn. It makes me very fussy about how comfortable my lifejacket is to wear though.
Third. Carbon Monoxide (CO) alarm. A really cheap way to save a life, maybe. Where is your engine? Where does your exhaust run? Anywhere near where anyone sleeps? Fit a CO alarm there & test it regularly. Where do you cook? Do you use gas (natural gas, propane, butane)? Ever do that with the hatches closed in bad weather? Fit a CO alarm & test it regularly.
Other than that, to the OP, what is your point ??

[BillKny]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

It's very common for the insurance company to ask you to certify you have fixed the things that came up on inspection. Just sign it.

This is incredibly irresponsible advice, almost to the point of being malicious. If you certify things that were not done, your insurance policy is void.

DO NOT "JUST SIGN IT." Comply with the recommendations and THEN sign it.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by BillKny

This is incredibly irresponsible advice, almost to the point of being malicious. If you certify things that were not done, your insurance policy is void.

DO NOT "JUST SIGN IT." Comply with the recommendations and THEN sign it.

Again, all the Insurance Company is asking to be certified is the recommendations. i.e.:

"I certify as owner of the above vessel that all NON-COSMETIC recommendations of the referenced survey have been complied with to Marine Standards and Practices."
...

RECOMMENDATIONS – B
B.1- Should check the sail shackles to ensure they are safety wired, regularly
B.2- Should re-calk near the water fill deck fittings as the moisture meter showed high moisture in the deck

So what ire "the Marine Standards and Practices" for:
"check....regularly"? How often is "regularly"
"near the water fill deck fitting"? How far from the fitting is "near"

[Boatyarddog]

Originally Posted by Zzmeyer

I find some of the above amusing. Yeh, try and argue with the insurance company. They really need your business. As I read the certification, you must have the stuff. The only question is whether that stuff meets some standard. I guess you can ask them if the equipment you get meets their standard. A type 1 life jacket from Defender is $43 and the CO/smoke detector from Amazon is $25. I know it is the principle of the thing but an old German legal saying translates roughly "A principle is like a fart. Hold it as long as you can then let it go."

And still others would say "The Germans never really had good principals" So....

SV Cloud Duster

[Phyrcooler]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

If the insurance company was really concerned don't you think they would want another letter from the surveyor after saying that you did it?

The real issue in this thread is that surveyors write stuff that are "suggestions" and not facts or requirements and then the insurance co wants you to do them. If the surveyor "suggested" you paint the boat purple the insurance would expect you now to paint it!

Exactly!! That was what came to my mind from the start of this thread. Yes, the majority of the posters here are correct - you now need to comply with what was written. Even if you think it is BS or outside of any “legal” codes or laws. Well intentioned or whether it is in fact a “good idea”... These surveyors need to stick to facts related to the condition of the vessel and it’s REQUIRED equipment.

But that is the reality of these surveys and the whole “Certified Surveyor” system. Take a class, pay a fee to join their association... and now you are an “expert”. In my limited experience over the past couple decades I’ve seen plenty of important stuff gets missed, and conversely ridiculous “recommendations” get written by these “certified experts”. And the boat owner ends up paying one way or the other for this. (All due respect to any well educated, experienced, conscientious surveyors out there. )

[jmschmidt]

The operative words are "should have" etc. etc. are is meaningless. If you get as survey from a British surveyor they may use the phrase "should be seen as having" etc. etc. even more meaningless.

If you are a US flag vessel or even a US state registered vessel that operate in US waters the US Coast Guard regs are mostly non-ambivalent

Or as we say in the airline industry, RTFM.

[Adelie]

Even if surveyor has only recommended these items, insurance has made them mandatory if you want coverage.

I would get a Type-1 PFD for each regular member of the crew plus one maybe 2 more if you think you might ever have extra crew.

The flare thing I would quibble with since USCG has approved the floating LED things as alternatives to flares. While not exactly a flare as recommended it would be a hard push legally for them to deny a claim on the basis that it was not exactly what they stated.

They want smoke and CO detectors in every sleeping cabin, hard to argue with that one. You skimp on it there isn’t much room for an alternative interpretation legally. Really you want 3 sets: main cabin, V-berth, aft cabin.
If you can’t afford a 3rd set move the one one from the salon into the V-berth, just the other side of the door.

[Manateeman]

Adelie has great points for you. CO can kill you very quickly. A woman in Rhode Island died in a shower with a bad heater. Not a lot of time. Alcohol in your blood also shortens the time.
I still carry parachute flares, but if the USCG wants stuff up to date, them the electronic flare keeps my license clean and no hassles if boarded.
Remember to carry your 3’x3’ day distress flag in the dinghy and put your shut motor off red cable on your wrist.
I bet 90% of boaters have no idea what the day distress flag means but carry it or get a ticket. Which is easier. They carry guns.
Happy trails to you.
The manatee crew.

[Capt.Don]

Since you paid for the insurance survey, the surveyor should have provided you the survey and you had the chance to review the survey and discuss (negotiate) the findings before submitting to the insurance company. The insurance company wants a copy of the survey and a compliance letter where you document your compliance.

Our last insurance survey had similar findings. My survey had "Marine CO and Smoke detectors in ALL living spaces" -- that would be 3x CO and smoke detectors in a 35' boat. I discussed this with the surveyor and he revised the findings by removing 'ALL' and "Marine". I did install a a marine CO and regular smoke detector in the boat.

USCG has approved the electronic flare -- on sale at Defender.com for $58. Pay the international shipping to the nearest marina and wait a few weeks

Other items in our survey I noted that I would address once the boat is back home where I have reliable access to parts, tools, and qualified service personnel.

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by Sailor647

Hi all,
We recently had a survey completed in order to maintain our insurance. The insurance carrier is asking me to sign a form stating:

"I certify as owner of the above vessel that all NON-COSMETIC recommendations of the referenced survey have been complied with to Marine Standards and Practices."

These are the only requirements and recommendations made by the surveyor:

REQUIREMENTS - A
A.1- Should have type I life jackets if going more than 25 miles from shore
A.2- Should have up to date flares (difficult in Mexico)
A.3- Should have another CO / Smoke detector in second sleeping area

RECOMMENDATIONS – B
B.1- Should check the sail shackles to ensure they are safety wired, regularly (They are. And he did a rigging inspection.)
B.2- Should re-calk near the water fill deck fittings as the moisture meter showed high moisture in the deck (Impossible unless the meter is picking up fresh 5200, but that's another story.)

Question: Are A.1 and A.3 required for "Marine Standards and Practices?

A.1 - I know commercial vessels are required to have Type 1 Life Jackets, but pleasure boats and cruisers? I can't find any documentation on it.
A.2 - Taken care of.
A.3 - We have a CO2/Smoke Detector on the salon ceiling right next to the V-berth door and a Smoke Detector inside the aft cabin. Does this comply with Marine Standards and Practices?

Thanks in advance! I appreciate the help.

US registered? Add in a battery “flair” compliant under the latest USCG requirements. With this, most private vessels need no new pyrotechnics. Keep the old flairs clean and dry. Most still work after many years. I had to download the CG page for our Trinidad surveyor who refused to believe the standard had been relaxed.

We have battery operated Home Depot smoke, fire, CO2 detectors. Our surveyor was satisfied.

[Phyrcooler]

Originally Posted by Nicholson58

We have battery operated Home Depot smoke, fire, CO2 detectors. Our surveyor was satisfied.

On a related note - I just this week for the second time returned to Home Depot a Kidde branded smoke and CO detector. Both times woken in the middle of the night by a blaring alarm telling me to evacuate due to CO. This without anything running (motor, stove, heater, etc) on my boat, nor any other boat nearby. I’ll probably end up getting an expensive “marine” CO detector that won’t needlessly scare the crap out of us at 2AM!