Are these Actual 'Marine Standards and Practices' Requirements?

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by Phyrcooler

On a related note - I just this week for the second time returned to Home Depot a Kidde branded smoke and CO detector. Both times woken in the middle of the night by a blaring alarm telling me to evacuate due to CO. This without anything running (motor, stove, heater, etc) on my boat, nor any other boat nearby. I’ll probably end up getting an expensive “marine” CO detector that won’t needlessly scare the crap out of us at 2AM!

Sounds like too much heavy breathing.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Benz

I say again, let them be specific in their demands: let them say which publication they want you to to comply with--there are many, for many different purposes.
Legally, if you're US flagged, you have to comply with the USCG requirements which are clearly published, whether you're insured or not. If the insurance company wants more than that, make them tell you specifically. Otherwise they have created a huge loophole with their vague "Marine Standards" that they will use to deny any claim they want. "Oh, you only had three COm detectors? Dang, we require a minimum of four...too bad for you."

They did specify...it's in the survey list what needs to be done.

None of the items (Part A or Part B) are difficult or expensive, so just appease the insurance company by doing them.

Sure they may or may not be USCG requirements but that doesn't matter if you have a claim and lied about taking care of them.

[Nicholson58]

Every survey we’ve had found we should install vents in the lazerette lid. It’s under several inches of water in big seas. That and several other stupid recommendations I’ve always declined and backed up in writing to the underwriter.

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by Phyrcooler

On a related note - I just this week for the second time returned to Home Depot a Kidde branded smoke and CO detector. Both times woken in the middle of the night by a blaring alarm telling me to evacuate due to CO. This without anything running (motor, stove, heater, etc) on my boat, nor any other boat nearby. I’ll probably end up getting an expensive “marine” CO detector that won’t needlessly scare the crap out of us at 2AM!

I've got bad news for you. The expensive marine CO detectors give as many if not more false alarms than the Home Depot variety.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

I've got bad news for you. The expensive marine CO detectors give as many if not more false alarms than the Home Depot variety.

Truth

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

I've got bad news for you. The expensive marine CO detectors give as many if not more false alarms than the Home Depot variety.

Try ACE or Lowe’s. Find another brand. We’ve never had a peep from ours except at a dying battery.

[capn_billl]

https://www.menacemarine.com.au/manu...lifejacket-red

Type 1 are available.

I have 4 non inflatable, (pillow sized foam blocks with reflective tape, splash hood, and battery beacons) stashed in the V berth.

I bought battery CO detectors in a 4 pack box. I used them all in a 36 foot boat. One in each cabin, room, and one in engine room.

It's not hard, just do it.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Sailor647

Hi all,
We recently had a survey completed in order to maintain our insurance. The insurance carrier is asking me to sign a form stating:

"I certify as owner of the above vessel that all NON-COSMETIC recommendations of the referenced survey have been complied with to Marine Standards and Practices."

These are the only requirements and recommendations made by the surveyor:

REQUIREMENTS - A
A.1- Should have type I life jackets if going more than 25 miles from shore
A.2- Should have up to date flares (difficult in Mexico)
A.3- Should have another CO / Smoke detector in second sleeping area

RECOMMENDATIONS – B
B.1- Should check the sail shackles to ensure they are safety wired, regularly (They are. And he did a rigging inspection.)
B.2- Should re-calk near the water fill deck fittings as the moisture meter showed high moisture in the deck (Impossible unless the meter is picking up fresh 5200, but that's another story.)

Question: Are A.1 and A.3 required for "Marine Standards and Practices?

A.1 - I know commercial vessels are required to have Type 1 Life Jackets, but pleasure boats and cruisers? I can't find any documentation on it.
A.2 - Taken care of.
A.3 - We have a CO2/Smoke Detector on the salon ceiling right next to the V-berth door and a Smoke Detector inside the aft cabin. Does this comply with Marine Standards and Practices?

Thanks in advance! I appreciate the help.

Only one thing it states CO ( carbon monoxide) detectors not CO2 (carbon dioxide)
CO detectors should be mounted low to the deck but at least 1 foot above the actual cabin sole . Carbon monoxide kills many people in their sleep. Don't skimp in this one .

[lvictorlucas]

After having the state get involved and interviewing lawyers the insurance company finally said no problem here's 25,000 and just let us know if you want more money. I did decide to ask them 4 miscellaneous fees and attorney cost and Extras which they gladly paid. These are get-out-of-jail-free for insurance companies. The way to interpret that is that you are going to meet the letter of the law on every item. You will have to get a good Marine lawyer involved to understand the documents they are talking about. I took a law class in college and and have dealt with lawyers for many years these are definitely not the kind of documents you read yourself. The insurance company will first try to Bluff you and then when you get serious and get the state and attorneys involved they will weigh atourney cost knowing they will lose in court and fold. We are going without insurance on most properties where we legally can and self-insuring. Always get the maximum deductible And limit the coverage to just what you absolutely have to have. Another good idea is umbrella coverage if you have more then a couple of items Like Houses boats Etc. If there is much value in the property also incorporated it as an LLC. That way you are a liability is limited to the value of the property and unless you have a mortgage or loan on it there is a large reduction in your carrying cost. Any good lawyer that deals in these items well I have a lot of good ways of getting around these types of clauses.

[TabbyCat]

Originally Posted by Sailor647

Hi all,
We recently had a survey completed in order to maintain our insurance. The insurance carrier is asking me to sign a form stating:

"I certify as owner of the above vessel that all NON-COSMETIC recommendations of the referenced survey have been complied with to Marine Standards and Practices."

These are the only requirements and recommendations made by the surveyor:

REQUIREMENTS - A
A.1- Should have type I life jackets if going more than 25 miles from shore
A.2- Should have up to date flares (difficult in Mexico)
A.3- Should have another CO / Smoke detector in second sleeping area

RECOMMENDATIONS – B
B.1- Should check the sail shackles to ensure they are safety wired, regularly (They are. And he did a rigging inspection.)
B.2- Should re-calk near the water fill deck fittings as the moisture meter showed high moisture in the deck (Impossible unless the meter is picking up fresh 5200, but that's another story.)

Question: Are A.1 and A.3 required for "Marine Standards and Practices?

A.1 - I know commercial vessels are required to have Type 1 Life Jackets, but pleasure boats and cruisers? I can't find any documentation on it.
A.2 - Taken care of.
A.3 - We have a CO2/Smoke Detector on the salon ceiling right next to the V-berth door and a Smoke Detector inside the aft cabin. Does this comply with Marine Standards and Practices?

Thanks in advance! I appreciate the help.

Your chose the surveyor, and he has made these recommendations. Now it appears that you are arguing with the professional advice given to you by the surveyor.
It is unlikely that you will have claim that is directly attributable to A1 & A3, but the claims adjuster does have the option to check to see that you complied with all the survey recommendations. If you fail to complete a survey recommendation, and then file a claim, that claim may be denied, since you failed to keep up your end of the insurance contract, which was to complete all the survey recommendations, except for the cosmetic ones. Some claims adjusters are more lenient than others, but be aware that in the worst case scenario, the incomplete recommendation (life jackets & smoke detectors) does not have to be related to the cause of loss, for example grounding, lightning, hit bridge.

If you want to not do one of the recommendations, the form usually provides space for you to list the ones that you are not doing, and provide your explanation. You could say :
"A-1 Not doing - We don't have Type I life Jackets, but we do have x? number of type X? life jackets".
"A3 - Not doing - We have a CO2/Smoke Detector on the salon ceiling right next to the V-berth door and a Smoke Detector inside the aft cabin"
and turn the form in. If they accept that, then you are good. But don't go trying to prove the surveyor is "wrong" since that calls into question the validity of the entire survey.

[Lightwave99]

Really??? Do we need that kind of crudeness in this forum?

[garyfrankovich]

It doesn't matter what you call them, if your insurance carrier requests you to sign a letter of compliance stating that you will fix certain Findings from the survey, it's saying if you fix these things we will provide coverage, if you don't sign we won't insure you. CAUTION!!! If you sign the letter of compliance, and don't comply everything you said you would, you have breached the contract, if you get hit by lightning, lose your rig, or anything else, the insurance company has the right to deny your claim and void the policy.

[maersi]

Why not just ask the insurance company for a copy of their "Marine Standards and Practices" or references to sources, so that you can ensure that the recommendations are satisfactorily complied with. If they cannot supply this information, then they cannot deny a claim.

[Capn Rick]

Originally Posted by Sailor647

Hi all,
We recently had a survey completed in order to maintain our insurance. The insurance carrier is asking me to sign a form stating:

"I certify as owner of the above vessel that all NON-COSMETIC recommendations of the referenced survey have been complied with to Marine Standards and Practices."

These are the only requirements and recommendations made by the surveyor:

REQUIREMENTS - A
A.1- Should have type I life jackets if going more than 25 miles from shore
A.2- Should have up to date flares (difficult in Mexico)
A.3- Should have another CO / Smoke detector in second sleeping area

RECOMMENDATIONS – B
B.1- Should check the sail shackles to ensure they are safety wired, regularly (They are. And he did a rigging inspection.)
B.2- Should re-calk near the water fill deck fittings as the moisture meter showed high moisture in the deck (Impossible unless the meter is picking up fresh 5200, but that's another story.)

Question: Are A.1 and A.3 required for "Marine Standards and Practices?

A.1 - I know commercial vessels are required to have Type 1 Life Jackets, but pleasure boats and cruisers? I can't find any documentation on it.
A.2 - Taken care of.
A.3 - We have a CO2/Smoke Detector on the salon ceiling right next to the V-berth door and a Smoke Detector inside the aft cabin. Does this comply with Marine Standards and Practices?

Thanks in advance! I appreciate the help.

First off "Marine Standards and Practices" means nothing. In my surveys I quote ABYC recommendations, NFPA 302 standards and others, USCG regulations (which are law) plus best marine practice.

A.1 Type 1 life jackets are AKA "Offshore Life Jackets" because of extra buoyancy, reflective tape and other features. Although not required for recreational craft it would certainly be wise to have them readily available when cruising offshore. This would be best marine practice.
A.2 If you only carry pyrotechnic flares then the USCG requires three current flares. You may substitute a marine locator beacon and red flag, but aerial flares can be seen from a much longer distance. Expired flares may be kept as spares.
A.3 ABYC recommends CO detectors in the main cabin and each sleeping area. They should be tested to UL2034. Smoke detectors fall under NFPA, I believe UL 217 testing, I didn't look this one up so don't quote me. Minimum in the main cabin, I have them in each sleeping area as well on my boat.

The bottom line is all of these A findings will make your boat safer, why would you not want to comply?

By the way, moisture meters are not without false positives. You may want to get a second opinion. It's possible the core has been wet for a while.

[goboatingnow]

For any survey for insurances purposes I insist on a sit down with the surveyor to “ review “ the report. I ensure the language about absolute recommendations is clear and relates to the legal position applying to the boat. For example British surveyors around the world typically refer to U.K. gas standards established under the U.K. BSS. Whereas my boat is subject to EU recreational craft directives. I had to insist on certain language being removed as the insurance company could mandate what is simply the surveyors best practice based in inappropriate language.

Never let a survey go out without a review by you. If your surveyor won’t agree at the outset , find one that will. Insurance companies take short cuts and simply will force you to agree to the surveyors “ best practices “ rather then the legal requirements

After that , suck it up.