Bahamas Rules For Firearms On Board

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Shanachie

Yet you list your location as "in paradise" ...

Originally Posted by Wotname

The thread is about the Bahamas so just to be clear, these events occurred in the Bahamas right?

All these cases were in the Caribbean, considered by most sailors to be cruising paradise, incl. us. Please don’t believe there are crime free places that can be called sailors paradise, they don’t exist because they are in 3rd world countries where “rich” sailors are marks by default or in more developed parts where crime is considered a career.

All sailors visiting the Bahamas come from and go to places where a firearm aboard is of higher importance than a CO detector. I must add that it should be just a shotgun in that case. We only take a handgun (in addition to a shotgun) when cruising US and Bahamas, with the US being the higher risk area.

[goboatingnow]

I’d agree with that, I think the only place I’d feel the need to be armed is the US. Too many people with guns.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Dieseldude

I agree, OP did not get a real answer, It seems that the Bahamian consulate is the only official source, but they have ignored him for three weeks. It would not be wise to stake one's future on stories from an online forum. Probably, the best thing to do is pack a couple of flare guns and flares and go. But even flare guns might not be allowed in some places.

Sorry , the OP is looking for legal text , but not everything has to be passed as primary law

The OP has been given direct Bahamian customs source websites and has receive direct testimony here that the process certainly in Bimini is as per that.

That answer doesn’t seem to suit the OP , however

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by quackedo

OK. Checked into the Bahamas last year. "Brandishing a firearm" (your statement). If there is a very desperate need for protection, I will use whatever Is available to protect those I am responsible for (like a child) on my boat. No one in their right mind brandishes firearms, knives, baseball bats, etc in a threatening way. Just because something is aboard, doesn't mean it will be brandished willy-nilly. I am old enough and rural enough to remember when firearms were just tools like every other tool. This stigma attached to them currently really confuses me. And the misinformation surrounding them is really a shame. I spent several years traveling Mexico's West Coast and the Sea of Cortez. It is possible to get in a very remote area where calling for help would be laughable and I was once approached by a fast boat while far out to sea. It was very disconcerting and helpless feeling. There would be no way to call for help. As a Captain, I take the safety of my passengers/guests (often children) very seriously. I used to be a Counselor for the Boy Scouts and would do mountain hiking training with children. Traveling in an area where a bear attacks were getting common and a child was killed the previous week, I was told I would not be allowed to carry a firearm into the wilderness while traveling with the children. I asked the parents what they wanted me to do if a bear attacked their child and I was told to bang pans together. I couldn't live the the possibility of seeing a child in my care being killed while I did basically nothing. I have a concealed carry permit. I put my pistol into my backpack. On that trip, we were charged by a mother bear, I pulled my pistol, shot twice into the ground in front of her and she came skidding to a stop and ran away. I got in a lot of trouble for saving those kids. We were several miles into the wilderness. Even a serious injury would have probably meant death. My rule now is; If I am responsible for you, I will do what I can to protect you. Period.

You are mis representing my opinion

Would you have carried that gun in a jurisdiction that legally prevented you from using it that manner ??, these debates need stop being framed as if you are in the US. where I live , I can own and use handguns , so I have one. BUT I cannot use one for premeditated defence under any circumstances , that would include your situation ( mind you there are no bears )

Would you risk carrying and shooting such a firearm in my circumstance , I certainly wouldn’t

The situation is therefore similar in the Bahamas. You have NO legal basis to actually use the firearm while in their waters

The point is indeed if you are sailing ( or hiking ) where there is a high risk of violent intervention ( first asking yourself why you are doing this ) then , absolutely , a gun is useful. I’m certainly not denying that.

The trouble is in large areas of the worlds territorial waters using a gun puts you on very shaky legal ground , in many cases the condition of such entry will be the firearms must not be used, ie sealed on a gun locker ( I’ve had customs seals applied in one case ) hence you have no real opportunity to legally use the weapon. Secondly you have no benefit of castle doctrine legislation

No point carrying a gun if even displaying it is illegal. I used the term “ brandish “ to illustrate the point that using a gun merely as a deterrent is illegal in many nations waters. Little point using a firearm as a deterrent and then going to jail.

As a result my conclusion was carrying firearms results in way to much administrative hassle very uncertain legal usability and the likelihood that I won’t have legal access to it when I need it. I travelled with a gun only once and never again.

( if I had a choice a stainless sawn off would be my preferred choice !! )

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Brandishing arms? Sounds like persons who shouldn’t even be allowed to own any. We don’t brandish arms.
You do know that the right to self defense is a human right, carried in every constitutional state, right? ....

Maybe so, maybe no.

It’s fairly evident that he right to personal self-defence, as a general principle, is an inherent, “natural”, right, pre-existing any governments, or institutions, that might declare it so*. It’s a necessary right, for the survival of the individual, group, and species.
The basic tenets of the right to personal self-defense are the same everywhere, and is/are, consequently, also a universally shared feature of the world’s major legal systems.

In fact, it was probably one of the primary reasons for the creation of governments, in the first place. People banded together for collective self-defence, against other groups of people (and against large predators), and tried to put rules in place, to deal with violence among members of their own group.


Self-defence, therefore did not originate as a right, granted by a benevolent government, but as a reason for having government, in the first place.

As a genuinely pre-societal right, that evolved in the absence of the state, it survived the formation of the state, because no state will ever have enough power to perfectly protect individuals.

Conversely, human rights evolved, in response to the overbearing presence of the state, and serve primarily to ensure that states do not accumulate too much power.

State practice also does not regard the right to personal self-defense as a human right, but an individual unique, or one of a kind [sui generis] right.

* Every human life has inherent value, and every person has the right to life, liberty, and personal security. These truths are codified in the United Nations 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR). But, contrary to what has been asserted by some gun rights advocates, international law does not establish a right to firearms, as a means of self-defense.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Maybe so, maybe no.

It’s fairly evident that he right to personal self-defence, as a general principle, is an inherent, “natural”, right, pre-existing any governments, or institutions, that might declare it so*. It’s a necessary right, for the survival of the individual, group, and species.
The basic tenets of the right to personal self-defense are the same everywhere, and is/are, consequently, also a universally shared feature of the world’s major legal systems.

In fact, it was probably one of the primary reasons for the creation of governments, in the first place. People banded together for collective self-defence, against other groups of people (and against large predators), and tried to put rules in place, to deal with violence among members of their own group.


Self-defence, therefore did not originate as a right, granted by a benevolent government, but as a reason for having government, in the first place.

As a genuinely pre-societal right, that evolved in the absence of the state, it survived the formation of the state, because no state will ever have enough power to perfectly protect individuals.

Conversely, human rights evolved, in response to the overbearing presence of the state, and serve primarily to ensure that states do not accumulate too much power.

State practice also does not regard the right to personal self-defense as a human right, but an individual unique, or one of a kind [sui generis] right.

* Every human life has inherent value, and every person has the right to life, liberty, and personal security. These truths are codified in the United Nations 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR). But, contrary to what has been asserted by some gun rights advocates, international law does not establish a right to firearms, as a means of self-defense.

The last line is my point. The issue of self defence isn’t being debated. I was arguing that a premeditated use of a unlicensed firearm would be contrary to Bahamian law and similarly in many many countries.

Hence a locked gun without any legal clarity , is actually worse then it not being there at all as the temptation to deploy it contrary to local laws is strong and hence the opportunity to get yourself into serious trouble.

The point being if you in the heat of moment grabbed a kitchen knife and stabbed someone in self defence, the legal argument would largely test on proportionality , if you used a unlicensed gun you have already committed an offence even before you started.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

The last line is my point. The issue of self defence isn’t being debated. I was arguing that a premeditated use of a unlicensed firearm would be contrary to Bahamian law and similarly in many many countries.

Hence a locked gun without any legal clarity , is actually worse then it not being there at all as the temptation to deploy it contrary to local laws is strong and hence the opportunity to get yourself into serious trouble.

The point being if you in the heat of moment grabbed a kitchen knife and stabbed someone in self defence, the legal argument would largely test on proportionality , if you used a unlicensed gun you have already committed an offence even before you started.

In the Netherlands, a place very firm on firearms, when people use a gun in self defense, even when the gun is illegal, the court will go with the universal right to self defense and lately even drop any illegal gun charge as well (would fine for symbolic amount before).

"Justification does not make a criminal use of force lawful; if the use of force is justified, it cannot be criminal at all."

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

In the Netherlands, a place very firm on firearms, when people use a gun in self defense, even when the gun is illegal, the court will go with the universal right to self defense and lately even drop any illegal gun charge as well (would fine for symbolic amount before).



"Justification does not make a criminal use of force lawful; if the use of force is justified, it cannot be criminal at all."

I think you’ll find the issue is premeditation. For me in Ireland that’s the main issue outside your “ curtilage”. Hence if I have a licensed firearm at home for use in only as it licences stipulates, I can still reach for it if I am in fear etc , but I can’t walk around every night in my house with a gun or threaten someone without due cause.

In the Bahamas , a foreigner is not carrying a licensed firearm and the stipulation is that the weapon is unavailable whilst in Bahamian waters.

I think it’s a leap to suggest therefore if someone appears on the transom of your boat and you warn him off with the gun that you are not committing a crime.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I think you’ll find the issue is premeditation. For me in Ireland that’s the main issue outside your “ curtilage”. Hence if I have a licensed firearm at home for use in only as it licences stipulates, I can still reach for it if I am in fear etc , but I can’t walk around every night in my house with a gun or threaten someone without due cause.

In the Bahamas , a foreigner is not carrying a licensed firearm and the stipulation is that the weapon is unavailable whilst in Bahamian waters.

I think it’s a leap to suggest therefore if someone appears on the transom of your boat and you warn him off with the gun that you are not committing a crime.

You are describing a situation where use of a firearm is prohibited almost everywhere. The situations I talk about, you have the right to self defense, period.

[jerryf609]

Well, seeing guns in the hands of criminals is a reason why some of us want a gun.

[Shanachie]

Damn, you gun people really go through life cowering in fear, don't you? It's a wonder you get out of bed in the morning.

[Dieseldude]

Originally Posted by Shanachie

Damn, you gun people really go through life cowering in fear, don't you? It's a wonder you get out of bed in the morning.

It's terrible that some people live in constant fear. But I have to admit that I would be nervous of fire if aboard a vessel that lacked fire extinguishers.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Dieseldude

It's terrible that some people live in constant fear...

I know that I'm paranoid.
But, I worry that I may not be paranoid enough.

[Dieseldude]

Originally Posted by GordMay

I know that I'm paranoid.
But, I worry that I may not be paranoid enough.

Would you be paranoid if everybody were not against you?

[Rowglide]

Does the likelihood of small arms (locked up in predictable places)being on board American flagged cruising boats increase the odds of them being broken into when crew are not aboard?