Be Careful with U.S. Customs -- A Cautionary Tale

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by dwedeking2

. . . My opinion is the the American government is no different (good or bad) to any other empire in history. Governments tend to grow over time, and lose that ideal that started them.

Indeed, and it's actually not government's fault. Government does what government does, and does what we allow it to do. You can't blame law enforcement officers who are keen to catch criminals, for using whatever means we allow them to use, to do it. Civil forfeiture is just dandy from the point of view of the eager LEO -- cuts through all that pesky due process paperwork, proof, and stuff, and let's him get straight to the drug king that he knows in his bones is a drug king. It's up to US to pay attention, and keep government in line. If they run amok, it's OUR fault.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

You cannot do the declaration the day before. Nor can you do it when you are travelling around domestically. You are required to make this declaration AT THE TIME YOU LEAVE THE U.S. I can tell you've never done this before -- I have.

Once he checks in an goes thru security he is no longer "traveling domestically" even though he is on a domestic flight. Typically there is no interaction with the authorities beyond that first check.

He broke the rules and then couldn't come up with a explanation which supported the idea that there was something wrong.

The problem is once he leaves, it's a 1000 times harder to get the money back if they find it was illegal. If he had simply told them at the first airport like he was supposed to, they would likely have let him go.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Wotname

So you are saying he departed the USA at Cleveland.

Last time I checked, NY was still part of the USA - no?

Your last sentence is mere speculation and without any substance.

No it's not. Interborder transit is a limbo area.

Leaving Ireland one time, they had US customs at Shannon Airport. They took the fruit we had for a snack. We told them that we were going to eat it before departing but legally, one we passed their station, we were in the USA and we couldn't bring fruit across the border.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Constitution of United States of America 1789 Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

As with all parts of the constitution there are limits.

You have freedom of speech but you don't get to yell "fire" in a crowded theater without legal repercussions.

Likewise the govt reserves the right to control the border including searching you and your bags. As part of that, there is a reasonable requirement to declare if you have large amounts of cash. Once they violated that rule, it was subject to seizure.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Flawed logic. Recently saw a story about the evil immigration service that kicked out a former serviceman (who happened to be an illegal alien but you can get an exception if you join up). There was a lovely fluff piece with nice pictures with his mom...

What they left out that other sources provide was he was caught with 2kilo of cocaine and he had multiple other charges.

We have no idea from the picture and fluff piece what the real story is.

What we do know is that the money was honestly earned with taxes paid, that the guy had no criminal record, and that no charges of any kind whatsoever were ever even filed against the guy. Not only did they not arrest him, they pushed him out and sent him on his way. They weren't even interested in the guy, just his cash. Those are facts. Does that really seem OK to you?

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

What we do know is that the money was honestly earned with taxes paid, that the guy had no criminal record, and that no charges of any kind whatsoever were ever even filed against the guy. Not only did they not arrest him, they pushed him out and sent him on his way. They weren't even interested in the guy, just his cash. Those are facts. Does that really seem OK to you?

I will clarify:

- The original search and seizure was perfectly legitimate as they violated the rules.
- BUT and MAJOR BUT, if they have no evidence of a crime and no indication that they will file charges, the money should be promptly returned.

The problem is we have no idea what is happening behind the scenes. If could be a horrible abuse of power or they may be part of the albainian mob.

This case is far different from a traffic stop for a bad tail light and the confiscate money for no reason. That is the kind of civil forfeiture that needs to be focused on.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

What we do know is that the money was honestly earned with taxes paid, that the guy had no criminal record, and that no charges of any kind whatsoever were ever even filed against the guy. Not only did they not arrest him, they pushed him out and sent him on his way. They weren't even interested in the guy, just his cash. Those are facts. Does that really seem OK to you?

We don't know that. The guys lawyer said it but that doesn't make it true.

Again, I have an issue with not returning money if no charges are filed but not that they took it in the first place.

[AKA-None]

Obviously there are people posting here who have never traveled to a cash only society. Our trip to Belize required cash for everything and you can’t simply go to an atm to pull $2000 to pay for a boat rental. We started out with a couple grand and some days had to hit multiple banks with multiple cards to get the required cash for a simple vacation.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

No it's not. Interborder transit is a limbo area.

......

Honest question, when the passenger disembarked at NY (after the domestic flight from Cleveland), could he have walked out of the NY terminal without clearing customs or immigration process?

If yes, then he was still in the USA.
If no, then he was in transit for a foreign destination.

[cyan]

Originally Posted by dwedeking2

As an American citizen, i think the issue is that the American government (and most Americans) hold up the country as a pillar of personal freedoms with a lot of hype about how its so individualistic and free. Unfortunately reality doesnt match that and the fall from the pedestal is that much further.

My opinion is the the American government is no different (good or bad) to any other empire in history. Governments tend to grow over time, and lose that ideal that started them.

Exactly.
The history here is a bit ironic, really...

The American Revolution that led to those personal freedoms was, in part, triggered by the British "Writ of Assistance". In the American colonies around 1760, Writs of Assistance were used by British customs officials to search and to seize any property of their choosing WITHOUT a warrant. Civil forfeiture by Customs. (sound familiar?) They didn't need a judge or a warrant and people rightly protested. Troops were sent in. Big war. Good guys win. US Constitution gets written and amended with the 4th Amendment that protects US citizens from unlawful search and seizure in 1791.

Kenomac, as you can see it is MANIFESTLY American (not 'anti-American') to protest a government that practices such things!

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Not true! The border is in the international terminal of the airport from which you leave the country. You cannot even file a Form 105 in a domestic terminal, in transit.

Note that he was not even accused of not declaring the cash. There would be no story here, if he had violated any law. Did you not get that? He was not accused of anything, and CBP didn't even file a case to confiscate the cash. They just grabbed it and kept it.

The system (TSA) requires a passport when any follow-on segment on the ticket includes international flight. TSA at the first airport is typically the only security check on outbound international flights from the US.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

No it's not. Interborder transit is a limbo area.

Leaving Ireland one time, they had US customs at Shannon Airport. They took the fruit we had for a snack. We told them that we were going to eat it before departing but legally, one we passed their station, we were in the USA and we couldn't bring fruit across the border.

Sorry, but there is no limbo here. Where the border is, is well defined. It is most definitely not inside the domestic terminal of some transit airport, any more than it's at your front door when you leave to go to the airport.

For air (or train) travel, the border is where you leave the country. There is as specifically defined procedure known as "preclearance" where immigration and/or customs officials of one country are stationed in the airport (or train station) of another country. That's what you encountered at Shannon, and the Eurostar uses the same system for the Channel Tunnel train between London and Paris.

I have filed a lot of CTR's (the predecessor of Form 105), so my knowledge about this is not theoretical. I ran a business in a country right in the middle of transition from Communism, with non-functioning banks, hyperinflation, and general chaos. The only way to pay salary to anyone was in cash. For several years, every three months I had to bring a bag of cash from the U.S. for the payroll. You file the CTRs at the customs office in the airport from which you leave the country, just before you get on the plane. There is a zone in the international terminals of airports which is beyond customs and immigration -- when you enter that zone, you are crossing the border. You are not allowed to file a CTR anywhere or at any time else -- it must be done at the time you cross the border.

It is interesting to report that when I reported the cash in the "craphole" (as someone said) country where I was working, although that country was in considerable turmoil at the time, I was never afraid that customs in that country would just grab the cash -- that's something which at that time only happened in REALLY craphole countries, in South America or Africa. I always declared it, showed it, let them count it, and there was never any problem.

Anyone who has ever traveled internationally with a non-U.S. citizen will also know about I-94's. Like CTR's or Form 105's, you are required to file those at the time of leaving the country. You gave them up (until recently -- the system has just been made paperless) at the departure gate for the international flight which took you out of the U.S. The airlines collected them on behalf of immigration. You cannot (or could not) file them anywhere else, and certainly not in transit in some domestic airport.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Once he checks in an goes thru security he is no longer "traveling domestically" even though he is on a domestic flight. Typically there is no interaction with the authorities beyond that first check.

He broke the rules and then couldn't come up with a explanation which supported the idea that there was something wrong.

That is simply not true. Security has nothing to do with it. You just made all this up. International terminals of U.S. airports have defined "international zones" where you are deemed to be entering or exiting the country. If he had broken any rules, you can be sure CBP would have accused him of that -- and they did not.

Originally Posted by valhalla360

The problem is once he leaves, it's a 1000 times harder to get the money back if they find it was illegal. If he had simply told them at the first airport like he was supposed to, they would likely have let him go.

You just made that up, and it is false. You are not only not supposed to file a Form 105 at the first airport, you can't even do it there. You are obligated to file it at the time you leave the country. Just like you are obligated to clear INTO the country when you arrive and pass out of the international zone of the airport, not in some domestic transit airport.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by cyan

Kenomac, as you can see it is MANIFESTLY American (not 'anti-American') to protest a government that practices such things!

As citizens we are supposed to it’s the foundation the US was founded on, and I’d go so far as to say as a Military Officer, it’s my sworn duty to do so.

[TrentePieds]

Re #149

OUCH!!! If there is any America-bashing to be done, leave it to the Americans. Some of them are SERIOUSLY competent at it and TOTALLY ruthless about it ;-0)!!

But Man! Do I ever miss Red Skelton and Clem Kadiddlehopper

TP