Be Careful with U.S. Customs -- A Cautionary Tale

[BillsWife1]

Originally Posted by ArmyDaveNY

As far as his employment the article stated he retired as an Albanian police officer. That is a big part of his source of the money. Also, you should see how many immigrants work and save.

So you just proved my point...the average monthly income of a worker in Albania is approximately $560 USD.

Even if a retired police officer made twice what the average employed individual makes the math still doesn't work.

A suburb of Cleveland is no NYC and certainly doesn't have a Lydig Avenue like the Bronx, where his ESL wouldn't be an issue in earning a living.

[ArmyDaveNY]

Originally Posted by Rorzech

These rules / orders come from the top . The very top. way higher than the President ! They come from the Central Bankers. Their goal is to have a cashless system and they will stop at nothing to make people abhor the idea of dealing with cash. Cash and Crypto currency are the only ways to keep your transactions private and out of the control of the banks. I thought everybody knew this in this day and age !

This is certainly a part of it. Well said.

[Dockhead]

Here's a good article on the systematic abuses of civil asset forfeiture procedure:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-echochambers-29228851

In case after case, police simply seize significant amounts of cash from innocent people and refuse to give it back even when they realize that the person has not committed any crime.

USA Today editorial board:

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/opinio...tes/534028001/

Alabama Institute of Justice:

Policing for Profit: Alabama - Institute for Justice

Washington Post:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/gdpr-...=.6a2ff4006245

Again, the Heritage Foundation:

https://www.heritage.org/crime-and-j...he-need-reform

But I think that all this is not so relevant to cruising. The main point of this thread is just to let cruisers know to be careful. Best just not to carry cash at all.

But a related issue is what happens if someone is found with drugs on board your boat. It is not out of the question that a bag of weed brought on board by your friend's teenage son (say) could get your boat confiscated.

[a64pilot]

OK, even if he is a Pimp or pushes drugs or any other illegal activity.
There should be a burden of proof to show that the money was obtained illegally, not to seize it, and make you prove it wasn’t.

How would you feel if you were stopped and they seized your boat, cause you could not prove you have never used it for any illegal activity?

I believe they have to power to do so, do you think they should have that kind of authority? Yes or no?

[ArmyDaveNY]

Originally Posted by BillsWife1

So you just proved my point...the average monthly income of a worker in Albania is approximately $560 USD.

Even if a retired police officer made twice what the average employed individual makes the math still doesn't work.

A suburb of Cleveland is no NYC and certainly doesn't have a Lydig Avenue like the Bronx, where his ESL wouldn't be an issue in earning a living.

Actually I did not prove your point. Retirement is only one way to earn income. We don't know for sure but he also likely worked when he was here and perhaps both his wife and his son did too. The point is we don't know and one is supposed to be innocent until proven guilty.

My dad had a friend who worked at a Catholic high school in the sixties and seventies, which is not exactly a high paying job. He retired in his fifties and owned a used Ferrari because he saved most of his money and invested wisely. It can be done and is done my many. There are many immigrants who speak enough English to work but when dealing with hard questions in a stressful environment, and fast speakers, will have trouble anywhere in the country. There are millions of immigrants who don't speak great English yet still work.

There are also pockets of various nationalities all over the country and they often help each other out with jobs.

Again, you may be correct that he is a criminal, but as I pointed out, most likely he is a victim of an overzealous and unconstitutional activity, pursued by those who are benefitting from its abuse.

[BillsWife1]

Well that didn't take long for people to NOT read what I wrote and to insert their own reality and interpretation.

If you actually read what I wrote, I clearly state that there are incredible injustices in our justice system and that I agree that there is room for improvement.

My comment was that there are holes in this story. I in no way said that this man wasn't wronged, just that there may be other things to consider.

BTW... one of the largest civil asset forfeiture examples was 3.9 billion dollars recovered in the Bernie Madoff case. Those funds were given back to his victims...some little old lady got her money back and was saved from eating cat food and living on just her social security check. Hmm...perhaps a second side of civil asset forfeiture. TWO sides TWO sides.

[ArmyDaveNY]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

OK, even if he is a Pimp or pushes drugs or any other illegal activity.
There should be a burden of proof to show that the money was obtained illegally, not to seize it, and make you prove it wasn’t.

How would you feel if you were stopped and they seized your boat, cause you could not prove you have never used it for any illegal activity?

I believe they have to power to do so, do you think they should have that kind of authority? Yes or no?

+1

[BillsWife1]

Originally Posted by ArmyDaveNY

Again, you may be correct that he is a criminal, but as I pointed out, most likely he is a victim of an overzealous and unconstitutional activity, pursued by those who are benefitting from its abuse.

For goodness sake. I did not say he was a criminal. I said there are holes in this article/story!

[Singularity]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

But I think that all this is not so relevant to cruising. The main point of this thread is just to let cruisers know to be careful. Best just not to carry cash at all.

It's a subject certainly relevant to a lot of cruisers. Just two months ago I completed a job overseas wherein a bank snafu almost resulted in me needing to bring back nearly 50k in cash. Certainly it would have been declared, and I discussed the issue with the local consulate shortly before the bank issue was resolved.

It's more than troubling that my money could have been taken with the support of some of my fellow citizens who do not live a more dynamic life and do not understand the complexities of the world beyond what is on the TV or that which evolves inside the imagination.

Thanks for the references!

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by BillsWife1

So you just proved my point...the average monthly income of a worker in Albania is approximately $560 USD.

Even if a retired police officer made twice what the average employed individual makes the math still doesn't work.

A suburb of Cleveland is no NYC and certainly doesn't have a Lydig Avenue like the Bronx, where his ESL wouldn't be an issue in earning a living.

You didn't read the article.

The guy and his wife had been living and working in the U.S. for 12 years, and money represented 12 years of their collective savings, less than $5000 per year. Is it a lie? Is he a terrorist or drug king? Maybe, but he has stated this in his lawsuit to try to recover his money, and I very much doubt that a terrorist or drug king would voluntarily take such a claim into a court where he will have to present evidence that that is the case.

The guy is a foreigner, with cash. You jump to the conclusion, like the CBP guys did, that he must have been doing something wrong, to have cash like that on him -- guy from a poor country, couldn't have earned it honestly, therefore we're taking it from you -- simple as that.

That's actually a pattern -- black guy or immigrant with cash -- wham, it's gone, even as the result of a minor traffic stop. Ming Long Tiu in Alabama is one of the cases frequently discussed -- the money seized from him -- in a routine traffic stop! -- turned out to be perfectly legal funds he was carrying on the way to buy a restaurant. "Turned out" -- i.e., he proved it in court, and eventually won his money back, but only after two years of legal battles. Perfectly law abiding entrepreneur, as it turns out and was proven, with no criminal record, present in the U.S. legally, his only offense being funny looking and not speaking much English.

Another frequently discussed case is that of a young black guy caught in an airport with $5000 or so to pay his tuition at college. Got to be drugs, right? Wham. Also took him about two years to eventually prove that the money was completely legal, during which the police refused to give the money back, even after it became pretty obvious the guy was not involved in drugs and was just a college student from a family that didn't use banks much.

That, friends, is abuse -- the only word for it. Outrageous abuse.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by astokel

The story seems fishy.

How much cash should you carry with you? $100 in small bills and a bank card from which I can slowly withdraw $58,000.

We are in NY on our way back to Toronto after an 18 month cruise. If you had done any extended cruising it wouldn't seem fishy at all.

Canadian credit cards and debit cards don't always work in the US or on many of the islands.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Singularity

It's a subject certainly relevant to a lot of cruisers. Just two months ago I completed a job overseas wherein a bank snafu almost resulted in me needing to bring back nearly 50k in cash. Certainly it would have been declared, and I discussed the issue with the local consulate shortly before the bank issue was resolved.

It's more than troubling that my money could have been taken with the support of some of my fellow citizens who do not live a more dynamic life and do not understand the complexities of the world beyond what is on the TV or that which evolves inside the imagination.

Thanks for the references!

Yeah, exactly. We see that attitude in this very thread! Coming into the country with $50k in cash? Wham. You must have been doing something wrong, declaration or no declaration.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by astokel

The story seems fishy.

How much cash should you carry with you? $100 in small bills and a bank card from which I can slowly withdraw $58,000.

We are in NY on our way back to Toronto after an 18 month cruise. If you had done any extended cruising it wouldn't seem fishy at all.

Canadian credit cards and debit cards don't always work in the US or on many of the islands.

[Scotty Kiwi]

Originally Posted by ArmyDaveNY

You certainly are correct when you mention that there are two sides to every story. You are also correct that we don't know what, if any, intelligence the government has on him.

I do need to point a few things out though. First, while I admit the story as reported probably does not contain all the details, we have to note a few things. According to the article he was stopped not because of any intelligence. Many law enforcement agencies make stops and seize things that the find with no probably cause. We have lost sight of the Fourth Amendment for some time now. He was stopped for a routine "security" check, not for any probably cause. During the stop, they were asking questions which he wasn't able to answer terribly well do to his ESL (English as a second languate) issues. In particular the speed with which they were speaking was an issue.

I speak a few languages but not well enough that I can understand people speaking at full speed. I have seen the same here in NYC. I have to slow down for them to understand me. There is nothing unusual about this.

As far as his employment the article stated he retired as an Albanian police officer. That is a big part of his source of the money. Also, you should see how many immigrants work and save. Here in NYC, large numbers don't go out very often and save every penny. It is amazing how quickly one can build up a nice amount when you're not spending it.

The article clearly states why cash is preferred in Albania. This is true in many countries and even here in the US, cash is often used. When Hurricane Sandy blew through the northeast, I had some four or five thousand in cash on me since I Knew the odds of losing power were high. Sure enough, we did lose power but I wasn't worried. Cash is king.

Don't kid yourself, this isn't about finding bad people. This is about enriching the various governments, agencies, and bureaucracies involved. There's always some bad guy somewhere who needs to be caught. There's always some boogey many that the various agencies use to get extra power. They don't need civil forfeiture to get them. Al Capone went to prison and the government didn't need to violate the Constitution to do it. Neither to we today. This is just outright theft and a gross violation of people's rights.

IF he was guilty, then let the government prove it in a court of law.

More accurately .. if the government thought he was guilty, then they'd first lay charges. They haven't even done that.

[BillsWife1]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

You didn't read the article.

The guy and his wife had been living and working in the U.S. for 12 years, and money represented 12 years of their collective savings, less than $5000 per year. Is it a lie? Is he a terrorist or drug king? Maybe, but he has stated this in his lawsuit to try to recover his money, and I very much doubt that a terrorist or drug king would voluntarily take such a claim into a court where he will have to present evidence that that is the case.

The guy is a foreigner, with cash. You jump to the conclusion, like the CBP guys did, that he must have been doing something wrong, to have cash like that on him -- guy from a poor country, couldn't have earned it honestly, therefore we're taking it from you -- simple as that.

That's actually a pattern -- black guy or immigrant with cash -- wham, it's gone, even as the result of a minor traffic stop. Ming Long Tiu in Alabama is one of the cases frequently discussed -- the money seized from him -- in a routine traffic stop! -- turned out to be perfectly legal funds he was carrying on the way to buy a restaurant. "Turned out" -- i.e., he proved it in court, and eventually won his money back, but only after two years of legal battles. Perfectly law abiding entrepreneur, as it turns out and was proven, with no criminal record, present in the U.S. legally, his only offense being funny looking and not speaking much English.

Another frequently discussed case is that of a young black guy caught in an airport with $5000 or so to pay his tuition at college. Got to be drugs, right? Wham. Also took him about two years to eventually prove that the money was completely legal, during which the police refused to give the money back, even after it became pretty obvious the guy was not involved in drugs and was just a college student from a family that didn't use banks much.

That, friends, is abuse -- the only word for it. Outrageous abuse.

I did read the story...here is the excerpt.

In a statement, CBP said that “pursuant to an administrative search of Mr. Kazazi and his bags, TSA agents discovered artfully concealed U.S. currency. Mr. Kazazi provided inconsistent statements regarding the currency, had no verifiable source of income and possessed evidence of structuring activity,” that is, making cash withdrawals of less than $10,000 to avoid reporting requirements.

Dockhead...the fact is I don't necessarily disagree with you on some of your points. The issue I pointed out is, there are missing pieces of information and an incomplete picture. You seem to think that I assumed he was a criminal and at no time did I even insinuate so. However, to that point, aren't you assuming that there is no way he could be a criminal. Neither assumption would be correct.