Be Careful with U.S. Customs -- A Cautionary Tale

[svlamorocha]

Originally Posted by john61ct

The issue is not this one case. There is a huge systemic problem that needs correcting.

The fundamental concern is that rather than acting as public servants, many agencies behave as an intimidating occupying force, with civilians the target and opposition.

Being white, native English speaking and relatively wealthy, insulates many from that reality in their daily lives.

But that does not relieve their moral responsibility to inform themselves and their peers to take a stand and help fight for progress in strengthening the basic ideals our nation should stand for.

+1
It is interesting to see how much more abuse people suffer the moment the power-crazy officers know their victim is powerless.

When my wife enters the US (typically in transit to the Caribbean) with our daughter who is a US citizen and law student they will never "send her to secondary". When our daughter is not there there is 20-30%% probability that she will be sent to secondary because they pretend to confuse her with someone of a different race, age, etc, even though there is a file that explains they are not the same person.

Even of they do not care about the rights of foreigners, US taxpayers should know they are wasting time "profiling" people based on race when their officers can tell "Spanish" (of Spanish descent) from "Hispanic" (Mexican or Central American of Maya/Aztec descent).

[Singularity]

Originally Posted by shayski

I truly believe things are really getting out of control in the US and it's really a scary thing. We may have nice material things here that other countries don't have but it seems that the freedom that our forefathers based this country on and fought for has slowly gone out the window and the story that this thread was started about, is one of many examples of that.

Agreed. Back in the day I earned my undergrad in political science/international relations. Some of the paradigms supported here/elsewhere in modern times are so cooky and left wanting for consideration that the mind wonders if an IT-intelligent adversary of the US could devise a better computer-bot-algorithm. Seriously. What American with any understanding of American history and culture would support such nonsense? Complete disregard for civic literacy.

My great grandfather never learned Enlglish (stuck to German). My grandfather became a millionaire 70 years ago. If pappy floated some change to great pappy back then, and govt folks tried to take the money from great pappy at the airport, a mob would form.

I lived in Russia for a year back in the early 90s. No thank you. I've spent another ~9 years in various countries. No thank you.

What great irony it is that someone should be so lucky as to win the lottery, getting out of a craphole, coming to a good country, only to have the "good" country take up the practices of the craphhole, while "real citizens" of the good country support craphole-country policies, only to blame the degredation on the type of immigrant that made the country great in the first place. I mean you can't make this stuff up.

I'd advocate for a deportation based on productivity. It is very clear who is and is not productive by their disregard for the rule of law as it pertains to taking what ordinarily is the product of one's labor. Frankly the only people who logically support this are people on the govt dole--a wealth transfer from the workers to them.

This is about due process but apparently some people don't understand what this means--they can only focus on the after-the-fact "what ifs." To this I ask "what if you [person who doesn't care about due process] actually had money that you earned and someone took it from you, would this bother you?"

[Wantobe]

OK. Still a landlubber, but have read a great deal on civil asset forfeiture. This has become a real problem here. Law enforcement agencies use these laws to feather their nests. They take your money or property and file an action against the property, not against you. And you have to defend your property in a court staffed by the same people who will get to keep your money if you are unsuccessful. In 2014, the last year I have found compiled data, policing agencies confiscated more using civil asset forfeiture than burglars stole from their victims in the US. I have read accounts of coin collectors flying (domestically) to coin shows being shaken down by TSA personnel because they are traveling with gold or silver coins. State troopers in some states have scanners and will empty your prepaid Visa cards. Can't stress this enough. Traveling with money in the US is risky. You do not have to be guilty of a crime or charged with any crime to have your money stolen by law enforcement. I expect that customs has even broader powers to confiscate money and property.

[hpeer]

This is an old problem, I’ve read about this practice for over 10 years at least, perhaps much longer.

In a larger contex it is a symptom of a larger problem: IMHO the USA is no longer a law abiding country. There are crooks and abusers at all levels of government, industry, profession and religion. City, state, and federal laws are at variance with one another. Police officers and federal agents abide different regulations.

It’s a mess that gets messier. It’s a pity. But human nature. We are not a neat or logical species.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by achil

The law says he can do this at any International Airport, which, Cleveland is. If he got on the plane in Cleveland he would have had departed. All he was doing in NY was changing planes. It's not like he was hanging around NY for a couple of days to see the sights.

He only came up with the story of declaring after he spoke with his attorney.

Oh, come on. Have you ever flown internationally? Leaving the country takes place in an international terminal, when you depart U.S. soil, not in transit somewhere. There are no customs officials in domestic terminals. You can't even get into the international terminal when you're on a domestic flight. "All he was doing in NY was changing planes" -- false! New York is where he passed through the customs zone (even if you don't have to show your passport on leaving as you do in many other countries) and crossed the border. This is where you are required to declare your cash and make any other customs declarations. Even attempting to do it in some other place would be extremely suspicious. You are not allowed to do it in advance -- you are required to do it as you cross the border.

And once again, CBP had no complaint about declaration of the cash. This was not the issue and has nothing to do with the incident.

[weavis]

I repeat.

The USA government do things because they can. They rely on the offended and mistreated to sue them for recompense.

We all know how that works. Expensive and time consuming. In the meantime the offenders have what they want.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by GTom

In Europe, you'll have issues with most customs if you have more than 10'000EUR cash with you, it's not a US-only thing... However, they don't confiscate the whole sum, just a heavy "fine".

Indeed, even the bank cashier grilled me for paying in over £10k in cash after selling a boat to someone from Denmark in cash. The is no formal reporting required by the individual, but I suspect the banks flag up cash deposits over a certain amount.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Singularity

. . . What great irony it is that someone should be so lucky as to win the lottery, getting out of a craphole, coming to a good country, only to have the "good" country take up the practices of the craphhole, while "real citizens" of the good country support craphole-country policies, only to blame the degradation on the type of immigrant that made the country great in the first place. I mean you can't make this stuff up.



This is about due process but apparently some people don't understand what this means--they can only focus on the after-the-fact "what ifs." To this I ask "what if you [person who doesn't care about due process] actually had money that you earned and someone took it from you, would this bother you?"

Very good post!

And ties in very well with this:

Originally Posted by hpeer

This is an old problem, I’ve read about this practice for over 10 years at least, perhaps much longer.

In a larger contex it is a symptom of a larger problem: IMHO the USA is no longer a law abiding country. There are crooks and abusers at all levels of government, industry, profession and religion. City, state, and federal laws are at variance with one another. Police officers and federal agents abide different regulations.

It’s a mess that gets messier. It’s a pity. But human nature. We are not a neat or logical species.

Human nature leads to those who have power, abusing it, if you give them a chance. Human nature makes people capable of the best, and the worst.

I am no patriot -- I haven't lived in the U.S. for 25 years and don't plan to go back, however, I have to say, the U.S. has the best designed constitutional system I know about. That is because the whole system is designed to make it difficult to use, and therefore, to abuse, power. The Founders understood that. They understood that even in a democracy, the elected representatives are not the same as the people, and they understood that a majority vote is not the same as the "will of the people". They divided power between three rather independent branches in order to prevent a complete monopoly of power. Once effect of that is that if one branch starts to get out of control -- doing unacceptable things because of corrupt interests or because it's fanatically focused on one thing (dealing with drug lords, for example) and will stop at nothing to achieve that one thing, then you can turn to a different branch to bring things back in balance.


So are we "no longer a law abiding country"? Well, we never were! There is no such thing! Human nature is what it is, and human nature gives us corrupt politicians and abusive LEO's. We have an excellent constitutional and legal system already -- all we need is for people to be aware of their rights and speak up against abuse. Elect legislators with good values. Care about how judges are appointed, and speak up. Don't accept nonsense from CBP or Treasury or police departments that our rights don't matter, if ignoring them makes it easier to catch criminals. Or worst of all -- what we are doing may be harsh, but it's necessary, and you don't have to worry about it, because you are white and middle class and with no suspicious accent -- we're only abusing people who LOOK and SOUND like terrorists, gang members, money launderers, etc. This is the worst thing of all -- when people don't care about the rights of others because those others are other. If someone doesn't have rights, then none of us do -- N.B.! If you had to name one single principle which separates good countries from "craphole" ones, this is the one which would be it!


Civil asset forfeiture today is an interesting issue because there is no ideological controversy about it. The way civil asset forfeiture is practiced today is condemned by politically conscious people on the Right and the Left alike. So it is really just faceless government and out of control bureaucracies versus the rest of us, and I feel confident we will have reform. The out of control bureaucracies are incredibly powerful, as we've seen, and have pushed back ferociously against any attempts at reform. But they can't win in the end. There is no way this practice is constitutional, or acceptable, and we just need one Supreme Court decision to sort it out, or one well considered law in Congress.

[transmitterdan]

All banks and other financial institutions doing business in US are required to report "suspicious" transfers of money. Amounts >$10K are reported automatically. Recall the Elliot Spitzer prostitution scheme where he tried to undo a $10K payment because he forgot one time.

There could be any number of reasons this person was targeted. As has been pointed out we only have one side of the story based on of counsel statements. It's possible this person or someone in their family is on a watch list. It's also possible the Albanians have asked the US to BOLO. We don't know the government side. But that in itself is a problem because in many of these cases the government never gives its side.

The process of asset confiscation in the US needs to be changed. For example, the agency seizing the asset should not be allowed to keep or spend the proceeds. Also, the agency deciding the fate of the assets should not be allowed to keep the proceeds. The proceeds ultimately should go to some unrelated agency with absolutely no influence on the outcome. Even then there is opportunity for silent quid pro quo. So there should be a court that oversees the process with independent adjudicators. Better yet, the proceeds could be distributed back to taxpayers since they are the ultimate victims of most financial misdeeds.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by belizesailor

IMHO Civil Asset Forfeture is a clear cut violation of due process (I didnt teach Constitutional Law like DockHead, but I did take the class).

ACLU link on the subject:

https://www.aclu.org/issues/criminal...rfeiture-abuse

I agree with you.

I have a lot of disagreements with the ACLU, but they have done some great work on this issue.

Notice their letter to Congress on civil asset forfeiture:

https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/f...feb_1_2018.pdf

Signed by:

ACLU
American Conservative Union
Goldwater Institute
Institute for Justice (a powerful right wing libertarian advocacy group, headed by Clint Bolick)
National Taxpayers Union
NAACP
Goldwater Institute
Freedom Partners (another right-wing advocacy group started by the Koch brothers)

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

. .. The process of asset confiscation in the US needs to be changed. For example, the agency seizing the asset should not be allowed to keep or spend the proceeds. Also, the agency deciding the fate of the assets should not be allowed to keep the proceeds. The proceeds ultimately should go to some unrelated agency with absolutely no influence on the outcome. Even then there is opportunity for silent quid pro quo. So there should be a court that oversees the process with independent adjudicators. Better yet, the proceeds could be distributed back to taxpayers since they are the ultimate victims of most financial misdeeds.

This is incredibly important. This conflict of interest is a powerful incentive to abuse.

But I think that we need to abolish civil asset forfeiture altogether. It's simply not civilized. It is, inherently, an end run around due process -- "We can't touch you because of our pesky Constitution, without doing a lot of work we don't feel like doing (or can't, because we don't have a case), but we can grab your cash, house, car, bank account -- just like that! Your rights don't extend to your property!" This is just wrong. We already have Criminal Forfeiture -- a different procedure, where property is forfeited if it was used in a crime, when the crime has been proven legally -- that's quite enough.

[bletso]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

, or one well considered law in Congress.

Uhm, well that be be a while in coming! They couldn't decide what type of TP to use to wipe their large backsides!

[john61ct]

Fundamental problem there, is most citizens just don't care, got their bread & circuses, don't want the thought and effort of exercising their responsibilities.

Australia, Israel, other more democratic countries, **require** every citizen to vote.

Make the fine say a week's income, people will become a lot more politically aware pretty quickly.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Fundamental problem there, is most citizens just don't care, got their bread & circuses, don't want the thought and effort of exercising their responsibilities.. .

Indeed. I'm a respectable citizen, white, middle class, don't carry cash -- this my country, cops are all my friends, and it can't happen to me, so let them do whatever they want to with those guys with the funny accents, and with those suspicious characters in hoodies who don't belong in our neighborhood, if it makes it easier to catch criminals, and where did they get so much cash, anyway?

There is of course an old parable about this, that old Neimoller thing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_...

which is very true and very relevant.

The thing is -- the State is not our friend. It's not anyone's friend, except those who get a salary from it, and those who have direct influence over it. We are damned lucky to live in a democracy where we even have some kind of mechanism to influence what the State can and cannot do with us. You can be sure that if we don't use it, we'll lose it! The State needs close watching and tight control, and should never be allowed to just run amok, like it's doing in these cases.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by weavis

We are mercilessly funneled into compliance at every turn..

Until one day a few islanders on a soggy little strip of land off the north west corner of Europe stuck two fingers up at the United States of Europe and the evil Empire which plans and will demand total obedience of 500 million people.

Pete