Be Careful with U.S. Customs -- A Cautionary Tale

[ArmyDaveNY]

Originally Posted by john61ct

The issue is not this one case. There is a huge systemic problem that needs correcting.

The fundamental concern is that rather than acting as public servants, many agencies behave as an intimidating occupying force, with civilians the target and opposition.

Spot on. Mike O'Reilly also makes a valid comment in a similar vein. In particular the term civilian has become corrupted. A civilian is a person who is not a member of the military, but alas, too many police now use the term to describe those who are not police. Police too often forget that they too are civilians. This is a very visible symptom of the systemic nature of the problem.


One day I was at the marina when I heard the glug glug glug of the high powered military style RIB the police have become enamored of. They had all of the weapons mounted, were wearing their helmets and flak jackets, tinted sunglasses and of course, the combat gloves. They were trolling through the marina looking for "terrorists." Not once in ten years have they stopped and said hello and asked if anyone has seen any suspicious activity. Often they won't even return a wave. They do however like to pull into the marina so they can stop for a snack at the deli across the street. Again, they never say hello. They sure do like to pull boats over though, and write tickets.


These civil forfeitures only serve to expand bureaucracy and not to enhance our safety. Before 2001 there were few police departments around NYC that had anything more than a small Boston Whaler or a small skiff to handle the occasional jumper or accident. Today they have entire marine divisions that quite often overlap with multiple other law enforcement agencies.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by CarlF

. .. And I don't believe for a moment that he was going to fill out the form at the next airport. It's quite likely that he picked up both boarding passes when he first checked in. As we all know, there's no customs checkpoint when leaving the US -- only arriving. To who exactly did he intend to give the form? This sounds like an invention of his lawyer after he was caught.

On what basis do you believe that he did not intend to file his report? How would you or anyone else know? And why would you think he wasn't going to report it? It was all completely legal money, taxes paid, withdrawn from a bank account -- why would he not report it?

And do you really think it is OK to confiscate 12 years worth of someone's savings, because you believe that he might fail to make his report, and do it before his report is even due? I just can't imagine the ethical gymnastics which must be required to get to such a conclusion. Punishing someone, for something they haven't even done yet, because you think he MIGHT! That's just weird! The only case of that I know where such a practice was widespread was the USSR in the 1930's, and of course Orwell talks about it in 1984 ("thought crime").

Originally Posted by CarlF

I agree with all the criticism of the seizure laws. But:

It is a very bad idea to travel today with large amounts of cash. It is a big red flag - and should be. Money laundering is a huge problem and finances many of the world's ills (terrorism, corruption, sex trade, drug trafficking, weapon sales, tax evasion etc.). There is no "pro money laundering" lobby in Washington (...although I could slide into recent politics here). We should all be against money laundering.

Now that it is so easy to wire money legally, there really is no honest purpose to carrying more than $10,000 of cash - or even half that much. Presumably, the reason this gentlemen was carrying so much cash is that Albania is a very corrupt country and you can't get anything done without payoffs and bribes. For over 20 years, the very strict FCPA laws has made it a US felony for a US citizen to bribe anyone in any country.

This is just false, that there is not honest purpose to carry $5000 in cash (!). Half or more of the world is still a cash society. Many of your fellow cruisers on here carry thousands or tens of thousand of dollars in cash because they are going to countries where banking doesn't work the same way as it does here. Less than half of human beings on earth even have bank accounts. Probably a majority of the world buys and sells even houses and land with cash. I've done it myself. And even in the U.S., maybe we don't buy houses and land with cash anymore, but plenty of people still buy stuff like cars with cash (and there was a case in Tennessee, discussed in the video posted above, where a guy had $20,000 taken from him when he was simply on his way to buy a truck, and he even had proof with him that this is what he was going to do).

Why do you presume that this guy was on his way to pay bribes? On what basis? What kind of society is that, that takes away the fruit of someone's labor, just because one CBP agent thinks he might fail to file a report which is not even due yet, or because he might be on his way to pay a bribe?

Money laundering and bribery are crimes, and they should be. But there is this little thing called due process -- ever heard of it? Due process means that we don't punish people -- we don't throw people in jail, we don't shoot them on the street, and we don't confiscate their houses and property, just because some LEO thinks they might be on their way to commit a crime, without a shred of evidence. That's the way it's done in crappy dictatorships, not in civilized democratic countries.

In civilized countries, the cops are required to have evidence, present that evidence to a prosecutor, and convict the person in court. You have standards of proof, and you have another branch looking at the case as a check and balance. That's called due process, and it's a pillar of civilization -- it's a key aspect of civilization. We don't allow cops to punish people on the spot based on their guesses or prejudices. Taking away someone's life savings is a punishment which is worse than spending time in jail, for many, many people.

[Jammer]

[QUOTE=CarlF;2644956]
It is a very bad idea to travel today with large amounts of cash. It is a big red flag - and should be.

Money laundering is a huge problem and finances many of the world's ills (terrorism, corruption, sex trade, drug trafficking, weapon sales, tax evasion etc.). There is no "pro money laundering" lobby in Washington (...although I could slide into recent politics here). We should all be against money laundering.

Throughout history, there have been reasons to conceal the origin and movement of wealth. To this day, the practice is used to escape evil, confiscatory, or corrupt regimes. While the term "money laundering" is a relatively recent neologism, the practice itself is not.


I'm in favor of money laundering when the goal is to further escape from, say, North Korea. There are other example regimes, some in the present day, some in history.

Now that it is so easy to wire money legally, there really is no honest purpose to carrying more than $10,000 of cash - or even half that much.

The ease of wiring money is situational and poses its own risk of loss, delay, and confiscation. It is easy for a citizen and resident of the USA to wire money from their home to a citizen and resident of, say, France, while they are at their home.


Trying to wire money, in substantial sums, between two people who are traveling outside their home countries, is nearly impossible. Wiring money to yourself at a future destination where rule of law is weak and you lack trustworthy connections, is often unwise -- carrying the cash is safer.

And I don't believe for a moment that he was going to fill out the form at the next airport. It's quite likely that he picked up both boarding passes when he first checked in. As we all know, there's no customs checkpoint when leaving the US -- only arriving. To who exactly did he intend to give the form? This sounds like an invention of his lawyer after he was caught.

In the United States, people are responsible for crimes they have already committed. We do not write prospective speeding tickets for people just because they purchase a Ford Mustang, despite the fact that such cars are typically operated at extralegal speeds at some point after purchase.

[svlamorocha]

Originally Posted by CarlF

As we all know, there's no customs checkpoint when leaving the US -- only arriving. To who exactly did he intend to give the form? This sounds like an invention of his lawyer after he was caught.

I have the answer for you. Just before boarding you call one of the CBP 800 numbers. That is what I do every time I leave the US on a boat to request a proof of checkout that I can use to show to US immigration officers the next time they question me for supposed "overstaying". It takes a couple of minutes and they email the signed form to me.

[Mike OReilly]

To me, it is irrelevant what the source of the money was in the OP’s news. Arbitrary search and seizure without just cause and without criminal charge, should never be tolerated in a free society. We shouldn’t have to justify or explain our actions to The State. Unless there is a provable crime being undertaken, this just smacks of police state tactics.

We in Western countries have frittered away our hard-won freedoms, mostly in the name of safety and security. We’re surveilled everywhere we go. We have laws to “protect” us from all forms of threats, both real an imagined. We have police which all too often look and act like an occupying force. And in the USA you have the largest population of inmates in the world (not just the largest per-capita — the largest, period).

We’re sleepwalking into tyranny.

[ArmyDaveNY]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

To me, it is irrelevant what the source of the money was in the OP’s news. Arbitrary search and seizure without just cause and without criminal charge, should never be tolerated in a free society. We shouldn’t have to justify or explain our actions to The State. Unless there is a provable crime being undertaken, this just smacks of police state tactics.

We in Western countries have frittered away our hard-won freedoms, mostly in the name of safety and security. We’re surveilled everywhere we go. We have laws to “protect” us from all forms of threats, both real an imagined. We have police which all too often look and act like an occupying force. And in the USA you have the largest population of inmates in the world (not just the largest per-capita — the largest, period).

We’re sleepwalking into tyranny.

Exactly!


Per Ben Franklin "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by CarlF

I agree with all the criticism of the seizure laws. But:

It is a very bad idea to travel today with large amounts of cash. It is a big red flag - and should be. Money laundering is a huge problem and finances many of the world's ills (terrorism, corruption, sex trade, drug trafficking, weapon sales, tax evasion etc.). There is no "pro money laundering" lobby in Washington (...although I could slide into recent politics here). We should all be against money laundering.

Keep drinking the fear mongerers koolaid

Now that it is so easy to wire money legally, there really is no honest purpose to carrying more than $10,000 of cash - or even half that much. Presumably, the reason this gentlemen was carrying so much cash is that Albania is a very corrupt country and you can't get anything done without payoffs and bribes. For over 20 years, the very strict FCPA laws has made it a US felony for a US citizen to bribe anyone in any country.

How about that its his money and there is no law saying he can't carry it?
What happened here was theft.
What next? You jewelry, you have gold and jewels worth more than, therefore you must be a criminal

And I don't believe for a moment that he was going to fill out the form at the next airport. It's quite likely that he picked up both boarding passes when he first checked in. As we all know, there's no customs checkpoint when leaving the US -- only arriving. To who exactly did he intend to give the form? This sounds like an invention of his lawyer after he was caught.

Believe what you like but in a civilised world we have to prove a crime before punishment.
Clearly the US fails in this and so many other areas.
Tyranny, oppression, theft, mass murder the list goes on.

[CarlF]

Originally Posted by svlamorocha

I have the answer for you. Just before boarding you call one of the CBP 800 numbers. That is what I do every time I leave the US on a boat to request a proof of checkout that I can use to show to US immigration officers the next time they question me for supposed "overstaying". It takes a couple of minutes and they email the signed form to me.

Well, the first problem is the guy didn't speak English, I doubt the CBP has an Albanian speaker standing by on the 800 number.

The second problem is they would have told him that the form (FinCEN 105) has to be be filled out and delivered to CBP. You can't do this on the phone. The form is also only in English.

I travel a lot overseas for pleasure and business. Why put up with the hassle of the form? I have a couple of Fidelity ATM cards that let me withdraw $2000 a day with no fee or exchange rate uplifts at any bank ATM. If I need to send more to someone, I can order a wire sent to their bank account with no wire fee from my mobile phone.

I agree with the concern about US security since 9/11 - including the CG's heavily armed "safety inspection" without probable cause. And I give substantial amounts to the ACLU each year. But everything about this guy and his trip smells fishy. Why did they search his bag? I doubt three bundles of cash wouldn't show up on airport scanners. There's more to this story than the guy's lawyer is saying.

[a64pilot]

Someone but not me can spend as much as 60K plus on a watch.
https://blog.crownandcaliber.com/rolex-day-date-prices/
Should it be taken from them because it could be a Money laundering scheme? How about a Woman’s engagement ring? They are as marketable as cash.
Why not? What is the difference?

[Tetepare]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

To me, it is irrelevant what the source of the money was in the OP’s news. Arbitrary search and seizure without just cause and without criminal charge, should never be tolerated in a free society. ...
We’re sleepwalking into tyranny.

My Gosh Mike, I never thought we'd agree on anything besides sailing!





This case of "civil forfeiture" has been going on for a couple decades. There are plenty of cases where the victim, sues the government, wins and never gets their goods or their money back. Happened to somebody I know but The Agency's stance is "tough ****."



"[Supreme Court Justice] John Marshall made his decision, now let him enforce it" - President Andrew Jackson, 1832


And so long as the government can nail people individually, in small groups, or from populations that are generally unpopular the general attitude is "oh that's awful- what's on TV?"


THIS is why we have a 2nd Amendment stating that the right to own arms shall not be infringed, because some day there may be a tipping point at which time the government might need to be taught that they serve the people, not the other way around.


Best thing is to keep your head down. This is far from unique to USA. Some victims of government persecution push their luck, some are just unlucky. It can happen anywhere- yes, even including Europe and Canada. There are political prisoners in every country.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Tetepare

My Gosh Mike, I never thought we'd agree on anything besides sailing!

I’m a freedom lovin’ lefty .

Originally Posted by Tetepare

THIS is why we have a 2nd Amendment stating that the right to own arms shall not be infringed, because some day there may be a tipping point at which time the government might need to be taught that they serve the people, not the other way around.

You’re deluding yourself if you think your pop guns are going to have much impact against the most heavily armed State the world has ever known. And in the meantime, the problems mass guns have on your society far, far outweigh any benefits. But all that’s a different discussion, and one we probably shouldn’t go down here if we want to keep this thread alive.

Originally Posted by Tetepare

This is far from unique to USA. Some victims of government persecution push their luck, some are just unlucky. It can happen anywhere- yes, even including Europe and Canada. There are political prisoners in every country.

Completely agree, which is why I said “We in Western countries…” It’s not unique to the USA. Canada is definitely sleepwalking down the same path.

[cyan]

It is quite encouraging to read the collective outrage expressed in many posts here, regarding the alarming practice of civil asset forfeiture. Due-process and innocent-until-proven-guilty are precious concepts that are getting stomped on here. I have read many such stories in the past, and wondered where the uproar was.

AND... to me it is quite disturbing to see a couple of postings here that seem to defend this practice. Perhaps kindergarten terminology can help to illustrate how very wrong this is...
If you carry too much money, you're prolly a bad guy.

A similar government overreaching cash seizure can happen with regular transactions just under the $10K mark, when it's called "structuring". Just ask the Vocatura family behind the bakery in Connecticut whose assets were seized because their 100 year old (mostly cash) business had regular deposits in the $7K to $9K range. They have been put through legal hell for 3 years with no crime, no charges, no probable cause, nada. Just business deposits into their bank.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...b0aee7b8e83ae3

These stories are very numerous, with more than 1000 seizures per year in that state alone, 1/3 of which never involved charges of any crime other than moving cash.

That dark day when we, the people, might accept that the simple act of carrying lots of cash is EVER a fair reason by itself for "the authorities" to TAKE that cash...
well that day will be the beginning of many darker days indeed.

On a side note, is there a good facepalm emoji for a guy with a white wig writing on parchment with a quill pen? Thanks in advance.

[senormechanico]

Originally Posted by Tetepare

Best thing is to keep your head down.

My point is, we shouldn't HAVE to keep our heads down.


"When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."

That quote was attributed to Thomas Jefferson, but there are confilicting ideas about who really said it.
It makes no difference who said it, but it surely rings true.

[Kenomac]

‘Curious... why does it seem it’s always OK to post US bashing stuff on a sailing forum where it’s supposed to be against the rules to post political comments?

Seems like it’s only OK if the posts are anti-American. IMO. If non-Americans don’t like the policies, then... either don’t visit the US, or don’t carry large sums of cash if you do. No country is perfect, but I don’t know of any, where a person won’t be stopped at the airport whilst hiding $58,000 in the lining of a carry on bag.

[cyan]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

‘Curious... why does it seem it’s always OK to post US bashing stuff on a sailing forum where it’s supposed to be against the rules to post political comments?

Seems like it’s only OK if the posts are anti-American. IMO. If non-Americans don’t like the policies, then... either don’t visit the US, or don’t carry large sums of cash if you do. No country is perfect, but I don’t know of any, where a person won’t be stopped at the airport whilst hiding $58,000 in the lining of a carry on bag.

As an American, I'm curious too... why would anyone from The Land of the Free think it is okay for a person to be "stopped" because of his stack of cash, and then have all of that cash taken simply because there was a lot of cash??
THAT seems anti-American to me.
(honestly curious)