Beware Government Misinformation

[Nomad57]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Never say never, Terry. Many skippers don't mind passengers if they're friends. Try an easy overnighter with a friend, like the Toronto Islands. Heck, sharing drinks or a meal aboard, at the slip... that counts too. Cheers.

The people I used to sail with, have passed on. My "friends" used to boat with me. That didn't always go well. If you've had guests aboard (it's often the people they bring with them, family, etc, that can be the problem) you may know what I mean. Cheers.

Terry

[RaymondR]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Again, this is pure fiction not supported by any actual research, data or human experience. It is, however, consistent with the current view held by a few that markets are almost god-like. Here's a good book you might want to read by Harvey Cox, Professor of Divinity at Harvard University.


The Market as God

It appears that you are inferring that markets are strictly a modern invention and only occur with government intervention.

Nah, get two people together as buyers and sellers or barterers and you have a market. Humans have probably been doing it since one neanderthal found a prettier stone and decided he would rather have a sharper stick.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by RaymondR

It appears that you are inferring that markets are strictly a modern invention and only occur with government intervention.

Nah, get two people together as buyers and sellers or barterers and you have a market. Humans have probably been doing it since one neanderthal found a prettier stone and decided he would rather have a sharper stick.

I said no such thing, and I have absolutely no problem with markets and market-based solutions. I simply take issue with your mythologizing of them, and most particularly with your unsupported claims.

Markets are awesome at dealing with some needs, and completely useless at others. They are not inherently superior in all situations, and are certainly not always the most efficient or just approach. And despite your nostalgic reference, few people operate in this State of Nature. Modern market economies -- the kind we actually live in -- rely heavily on significant government support and structure.

[geoleo]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Again, this is pure fiction not supported by any actual research, data or human experience. It is, however, consistent with the current view held by a few that markets are almost god-like. Here's a good book you might want to read by Harvey Cox, Professor of Divinity at Harvard University.


The Market as God

Wooly Headed Professor at ultra liberal virtue signaling pile

[Thumbs Up]

The title of this thread is triggering me.

[RaymondR]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I said no such thing, and I have absolutely no problem with markets and market-based solutions. I simply take issue with your mythologizing of them, and most particularly with your unsupported claims.

Markets are awesome at dealing with some needs, and completely useless at others. They are not inherently superior in all situations, and are certainly not always the most efficient or just approach. And despite your nostalgic reference, few people operate in this State of Nature. Modern market economies -- the kind we actually live in -- rely heavily on significant government support and structure.

"Mythologizing" nahhh, not a whiff of a myth in any of my posts, just statements of fact.

Markets generally work well in bringing buyer and seller together [U]until[U] governments introduce their sticky fingers in an attempt to in some way control them, then they tend to go awry.

You have it entirely wrong. Governments do not support markets, it,s markets which support governments in encouraging economic activity which governments can then exploit through taxes on the activity for revenue purposes.

The agenda in criticizing markets is to demonize them in order to morally justify the "theft" of the unearned revenue stream.

Governments certainly have a part to play in the regulation of markets, such as criminalizing insider trading and discourage other activities analogous to theft, but should in general restrain themselves in their control attempts. The basic problem is they are just not good at it and their attempts almost invariably degrade the signals a well performing market provides.

The greatest market failure stemming from the GFC was not the economic damage it caused but that the perpetrators escaped accountability for their actions.

[Mike OReilly]

Again, you make assertions without any proof. Prove that "Markets generally work well in bringing buyer and seller together [U]until[U] governments introduce their sticky fingers in an attempt to in some way control them, then they tend to go awry." Where is your proof?

The proof of my statements are everywhere. Market economies rely on the structures provided by government. Without this massive government intervention, markets could not exist.

If you want to find your mythological markets free of government interventions, move to a place like Somalia, or join the free markets of the drug trade in Mexico. That's what you get when property rights aren't enforceable, when contracts mean nothing, and when might makes right.

All this right wing virtue signalling going on here with you and your fellows is rather cute. I know it's necessary for your tribal membership, but if you're going to make factual claims, then at least try and back it up with evidence.

BTW, I have no idea what "GFC" stands for. My top three search hits turn up:

• Go Fast Campers
• Grace Fellowship Church
• Great Falls College

This is the problem with folks like you three; you're so immersed in your own alternative fact world that you cannot see reality.

[Wotname]

GFC = Global Financial Crisis

[RaymondR]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Again, you make assertions without any proof. Prove that "Markets generally work well in bringing buyer and seller together [U]until[U] governments introduce their sticky fingers in an attempt to in some way control them, then they tend to go awry." Where is your proof?

The proof of my statements are everywhere. Market economies rely on the structures provided by government. Without this massive government intervention, markets could not exist.

If you want to find your mythological markets free of government interventions, move to a place like Somalia, or join the free markets of the drug trade in Mexico. That's what you get when property rights aren't enforceable, when contracts mean nothing, and when might makes right.

All this right wing virtue signalling going on here with you and your fellows is rather cute. I know it's necessary for your tribal membership, but if you're going to make factual claims, then at least try and back it up with evidence.

BTW, I have no idea what "GFC" stands for. My top three search hits turn up:

• Go Fast Campers
• Grace Fellowship Church
• Great Falls College

This is the problem with folks like you three; you're so immersed in your own alternative fact world that you cannot see reality.

Cool it dude.

GFC = Global Financial Crisis bought about by a cabal of Wall Street Bankers perverting the financial system.

You should not presume to know our politics, particularly as you so vigorously demand proof in other matters.

Every morning I hop on my push bike and ride to the newsagent for a newspaper. On Thursday mornings I have to change my route because they close the street to have a market. Folks that grow and make things bring them into the city to sell them to folks who want them. Whilst it's a fairly humble affair it is probably far purer in market terms than those habituated by folks in Gucci suits in expensive central city high rises being studied by those in the tertiary education system.

And, I actually have personal experience in markets having, abour six decades ago, accompanied my father to fruit and vegetable markets to buy produce which we then sold door to door by the bucket full. This stuff has been going on for thousands of years of human history.

[Sand crab]

I Go Fast Campers an oxymoron?

[Mike OReilly]

Sorry... I'm just getting a little ticked off at all the accusations of "virtue signalling," or charges of being a socialist, or about attempting to demonize markets "in order to morally justify the "theft" of the unearned revenue stream."

You cool it, and so will I .

BTW, I completely agree with you on the financial crisis question. The Wall Street Bankers perverted the financial system for their own narrow gains. And none of them outside one low-level person ever faced justice. Is this any different than how it's ever been?

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Sand crab

I Go Fast Campers an oxymoron?

No doubt some right-wingers view of camping .

[Nomad57]

I should not have used the word "Government" in the title of my OP. Maybe, "Beware Misinformation" ?

Nomad

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Again, this is pure fiction not supported by any actual research, data or human experience. It is, however, consistent with the current view held by a few that markets are almost god-like. Here's a good book you might want to read by Harvey Cox, Professor of Divinity at Harvard University.


The Market as God

The only contribution governments/Rulers have made to markets is to create money to enable an easier and a more convenient form of taxation..
1000 coins is much easier to transport and store than 1000 chickens.. plus they don't die.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by boatman61

The only contribution governments/Rulers have made to markets is to create money to enable an easier and a more convenient form of taxation..
1000 coins is much easier to transport and store than 1000 chickens.. plus they don't die.

Not going to bite my friend .