Beware Government Misinformation

[Nomad57]

This has been talked about on the forums before, but I will reiterate it here, because of what misinformation has cost me. Whenever you contact a government office of any sort, the person you are speaking with may not know what they are talking about, even if they do speak in an authoritative manner. You call one office, you get one story. You call another office somewhere else, or on another day, and you get a different story. It is always best to somehow verify what you are told. If you get the wrong info, it can cause you some inconvenience, or maybe even a fine. For me, it cost the entire "dream".

When I had the dream, (which has now died, due to health considerations) I called my provincial health insurance plan (OHIP) to find out about being absent from Ontario. I called them directly, because I wanted the info from "the horse's mouth", so to speak. What I did not know, was that what I got on the phone was the other end of the horse.

I was told that the maximum time an Ontario resident could be outside of Ontario was 212 days in any twelve month period, (about seven months). The general consensus is that it takes nine months to do the loop. It is not possible to get back sooner, because the locks aren't open yet for the season.

Of course, there were other obstacles to realizing "the dream", but this conundrum was the one intractable, unsolvable problem most responsible for "the dream" not coming to fruition.

I recently contacted the Ontario ministry of health in writing, and was informed that extended absences are indeed allowed, on an every other year basis. The information I was given in 2011 was not correct.

The realization that "the dream" had been within reach all along, and that it was basically held out of reach by misinformation, has been devastating.

Nomad

[Jammer]

A corollary is that there is no single right answer. Interpretation and enforcement of laws and regulations depends on who is doing the interpreting and enforcing.


We like to think that in western nations with strong rule of law this isn't true. Perhaps it is less true than in other places and times.

[Ziggy]

Another corollary is that when it comes to important information or requests it is best to communicate in writing. Any verbal information has to be considered unreliable. (Written statements may be wrong as well, but the chances of a correct response are somewhat better, I think.)

[Joh.Ghurt]

And even when asking in writing, the information you get might be misleading or not applicable to your case. I had to deal a few times with officials with not so obvious cases and more often than not, they gave me information unfavourable to me.

What I learned is that you need to know exactly what your story is and then present the story in exactly this way. Here's an example of the answers I got from the same office:

Q1: Is my cousin - an EU resident - allowed to drive my non-VAT-paid boat to the boatyard for some repairs? Answer: No, totally forbidden. I need to pay VAT first before my cousin is allowed to use the boat.

Q2: Can I charge my cousin - an EU resident - to drive my non-VAT-paid boat to the boatyard for some repairs? Answer: Sure, no problem, as long as he has a letter from me and doesn't spend his time pleasure-cruising.

Same situation, one with an unusable answer, one with reasonable limitations.

[skipmac]

In the US you can call an IRS help line with questions about your taxes BUT they state clearly that the advise given is not guaranteed correct and if wrong, you will be held responsible if you act on that advise.

[Sand crab]

I also got several different contradictory statements from the US Coast guard on a non-citizen cruiser question. So always be wary.

[Nomad57]

Sand Crab,

I asked those same questions, and got the same contradictory responses.

Nomad

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Nomad57

When I had the dream... I called my provincial health insurance plan (OHIP) to find out about being absent from Ontario. I called them directly, because I wanted the info from "the horse's mouth", so to speak. What I did not know, was that what I got on the phone was the other end of the horse.

I was told that the maximum time an Ontario resident could be outside of Ontario was 212 days in any twelve month period, (about seven months). The general consensus is that it takes nine months to do the loop. It is not possible to get back sooner, because the locks aren't open yet for the season.

Of course, there were other obstacles to realizing "the dream", but this conundrum was the one intractable, unsolvable problem most responsible for "the dream" not coming to fruition.

I recently contacted the Ontario ministry of health in writing, and was informed that extended absences are indeed allowed, on an every other year basis. The information I was given in 2011 was not correct.

The realization that "the dream" had been within reach all along, and that it was basically held out of reach by misinformation, has been devastating.

Is it possible that requirements have actually changed from 2011 to now?

I'm really sorry that you haven't been able to follow that dream. I hope that your health improves, or at least permits you to enjoy parts of that dream. Some is better than none.

Most of us have learned one way or another that no single advisor is 100%, especially when it comes to anything complex or out of the ordinary. My wife and I have learned to never be satisfied with one source or one answer; we will dig and investigate, and are usually rewarded with ideas and options.

For example, if we were contemplating being out of Ontario and doing the Loop, we would do the following (in no particular order)

• contact OHIP as you did
• go up the chain if I thought the information was incomplete or not definitive
• go look for the actual legislation or published guidelines, get out my highlighter, make some coffee, and spend a couple of hours with it.
• check out forums for cruisers or loopers to see if anyone else had this question/issue
• join the Loopers association and see if they've got an answer to this, or info on how others have got around the problem (eg stopping and flying home for an appropriate interval to maintain coverage)

You're doing us a service by sharing your story, and I'm sure others will benefit. And again, I hope you pursue as much of that dream as you are able.

[Mike OReilly]

Nomad, I'm truly sorry to hear about bureaucracy interfering with your plans. But as someone who has also studied the byzantine OHIP rules, I do have to say the availability of an exemption to the 212-day rule has been there forever. BUT, the newer rolling exemption option was brought in within the last few years. I'm not sure when the newer approach came in, but I think it would be after 2011.

[BugzyCan]

When I lived in Portugal, as a foreigner, I had to leave the country every 6 months, so we used to hop on a train to Spain, get on the boat to cross the river, being sure to get our exit stamp, and entry stamp as we entered, then we turn around, hop on that same ferry back, and get our newly dated entry stamp back in, and we were good for another 6 months. We did this for many years, no issues. Why not just pause your trip someplace, fly back to Ontario, maybe you have to stay there a few months?, and then return?

[Bullshooter]

I have a couple of hints to share that have served me well.

The first is when making a call to some bureaucracy or even a commercial entity you are doing business with, start early on by asking politely to whom you are speaking. If you anticipate problems, ask them to spell the name unless it is very obvious. This has many times worked for me, to avoid bad attitudes and unnecessary issues. People can be less reasonable when they are anonymous.

The second is NOT applicable when calling to get an accurate answer about a legal question, but is more applicable when trying to buy a ticket, or resolve a bill, etc. If you call and get a person who is not agreeable, or does not give the answer you want, hang up and try again, hopefully with a different spokesperson. I used to get aggravated but now I find it is easier to at least try to get a different person on the line.

[Nomad57]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Nomad, I'm truly sorry to hear about bureaucracy interfering with your plans. But as someone who has also studied the byzantine OHIP rules, I do have to say the availability of an exemption to the 212-day rule has been there forever. BUT, the newer rolling exemption option was brought in within the last few years. I'm not sure when the newer approach came in, but I think it would be after 2011.

Mike,
Extended absence provisions were added to Regulation 552 in 1999. When you say, "newer rolling exemption", I'm afraid I don't know what that means. There is no mention of it on their website at:

https://www.ontario.ca/page/ohip-cov...nada#section-1
which was published on April 21, 2017. I've tried to Google it, but came up empty.

On another note, I've been re-reading some of my older posts, in an effort to refresh my recollection. I know better than to rely on my memory, but sometimes I forget...

My first post on these forums dealt with this topic, as I was then so determined to overcome this bureaucratic conundrum that I was even considering buying two boats. Wiser heads persuaded me that this was not a really good idea, for various reasons. I did specifically mention the 212 day restriction, (probably more than once, in these forums) and no one ever corrected my misapprehension. That's why I never questioned it.

My bad...

Nomad

[Nomad57]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Is it possible that requirements have actually changed from 2011 to now?

They changed on April 21, 1999.

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

I'm really sorry that you haven't been able to follow that dream. I hope that your health improves, or at least permits you to enjoy parts of that dream. Some is better than none.

I've had Fibromyalgia since 1989, which is why I came up with this harebrained scheme. The first twenty-seven years were manageable. Five years ago, I was still climbing the most difficult aerial courses in Quebec, in half the time of people half my age. The last five, less so. This last year has been dismal.

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Most of us have learned one way or another that no single advisor is 100%, especially when it comes to anything complex or out of the ordinary. My wife and I have learned to never be satisfied with one source or one answer; we will dig and investigate, and are usually rewarded with ideas and options.

For example, if we were contemplating being out of Ontario and doing the Loop, we would do the following (in no particular order)

• contact OHIP as you did
• go up the chain if I thought the information was incomplete or not definitive
• go look for the actual legislation or published guidelines, get out my highlighter, make some coffee, and spend a couple of hours with it.
• check out forums for cruisers or loopers to see if anyone else had this question/issue
• join the Loopers association and see if they've got an answer to this, or info on how others have got around the problem (eg stopping and flying home for an appropriate interval to maintain coverage)

Re: points above:
I had no reason to suspect the person I was speaking with. Looking up the legislation would have been a good idea, in hindsight. It wasn't posted online until 2017.

See my response to Mike about my first post on these forums. No one corrected my misunderstanding of the rules.

Joining the Loopers association would most definitely have been a good idea. If I had half a brain, (which I do) I would have done so, (which I didn't).

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

You're doing us a service by sharing your story, and I'm sure others will benefit. And again, I hope you pursue as much of that dream as you are able.

Thank you, for your kind comments. They're appreciated.

Nomad

[Nomad57]

Originally Posted by Bullshooter

I have a couple of hints to share that have served me well.

The first is when making a call to some bureaucracy or even a commercial entity you are doing business with, start early on by asking politely to whom you are speaking. If you anticipate problems, ask them to spell the name unless it is very obvious. This has many times worked for me, to avoid bad attitudes and unnecessary issues. People can be less reasonable when they are anonymous.

This is a very good idea. To tell the truth, though, in this instance, I do not want to know who misinformed me. I honestly don't know how I would handle it.

Originally Posted by Bullshooter

The second is NOT applicable when calling to get an accurate answer about a legal question, but is more applicable when trying to buy a ticket, or resolve a bill, etc. If you call and get a person who is not agreeable, or does not give the answer you want, hang up and try again, hopefully with a different spokesperson. I used to get aggravated but now I find it is easier to at least try to get a different person on the line.

I have done this many times, and, as you suggest, has worked in the past.

Nomad

[Nomad57]

Originally Posted by BugzyCan

When I lived in Portugal, as a foreigner, I had to leave the country every 6 months, so we used to hop on a train to Spain, get on the boat to cross the river, being sure to get our exit stamp, and entry stamp as we entered, then we turn around, hop on that same ferry back, and get our newly dated entry stamp back in, and we were good for another 6 months. We did this for many years, no issues. Why not just pause your trip someplace, fly back to Ontario, maybe you have to stay there a few months?, and then return?

Would, that it were so easy. Regrettably, it's not. The rules are quite specific.


Nomad