Canadian Registration

[Bassman3]

I've been seasonally cruising Florida waters for 4 years in my US purchased, Florida registered SeaRay. I was just informed by CBP that I am in violation of their regs. I am Canadian and by nature of that my boat is "undocumented".
It looks like the best option is to register the boat in Canada (Ontario being my home province). The process is a bit arduous but not expensive and it would allow me to obtain a USA cruising permit each year with minimal hassle. My question is, will I get a bill for HST once Transport Canada registers the boat? I know this happens when I buy a boat in Canada but I've spoken to Transport Canada who referred me to the Ontario tax Dept. who referred me to Transport Canada. Nobody really seems to know.
And if I do get a tax bill, can I just ignore it if I do not bring the boat to Canada ever? I mean what can they do to me if the boat never shows up.
Any information or experiences you fellow cruisers could share would be appreciated.

[Vasco]

No HST if it doesn't come to Canada. That is if the boat is registered (documented, cost under $500, no tonnage survey if under 12m )) as a Canadian vessel. Don't know if you can just license it (no charge) in Ontario. In that case they might want the HST before licensing.

Do you realise if you have a cruising permit the boat has to leave the US for at least 15 days when the permit expires.

Interested in what CBP had to say. Many Canadians have boats in FL (state registered) that they leave there when they come home in the spring.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Bassman3

I've been seasonally cruising Florida waters for 4 years in my US purchased, Florida registered SeaRay. I was just informed by CBP that I am in violation of their regs. I am Canadian and by nature of that my boat is "undocumented".
It looks like the best option is to register the boat in Canada (Ontario being my home province). The process is a bit arduous but not expensive and it would allow me to obtain a USA cruising permit each year with minimal hassle. My question is, will I get a bill for HST once Transport Canada registers the boat? I know this happens when I buy a boat in Canada but I've spoken to Transport Canada who referred me to the Ontario tax Dept. who referred me to Transport Canada. Nobody really seems to know.
And if I do get a tax bill, can I just ignore it if I do not bring the boat to Canada ever? I mean what can they do to me if the boat never shows up.
Any information or experiences you fellow cruisers could share would be appreciated.

As a Transport Canada Licensed Master doing cross border deliveries and a Transport Canada Appointed Tonnage Measurer I get involved with this stuff all the time. You are not required to pay any Canadian taxes on the vessel until/if it moves into Canadian waters.

You are sadly mistaken if you think cruising the US under a cruising license will make life easier. let me quote directly from my cruising license .....

This license is granted subject to the condition that the yacht named herein blah blah blah ...Upon arrival at each port or place in the United States, the master shall report the fact of arrival to the designated Customs and Border Protection Officer at the nearest port of entry. Such report shall be made immediately upon arrival.

This rule has been on the books for decades but was rarely if ever enforced in the 25yrs I've been cross border cruising ... No more. For the last year or so this is being rigidly enforced. What it means is that every time you stop the boat at a "place" you must report in. No big deal you say ? Not so easy, many of the numbers provided by CPB get a "this number is not in service" message. When you get a human on the phone they often don't know why you are calling. I called in this morning and have yet to receive the promised call back. Two Canadians have been fined $5k for not reporting in, one was fined for moving to another slip in the same marina without notifying CPB. I received a written warning of Notice of Violation with threat of vessel seizure or not reporting in when the previous officer told me I didn't have to until I got to the next Sector ... I don't think they want the 25k a year I spend here supporting their marine and tourist businesses. Good luck

[deblen]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

As a Transport Canada Licensed Master doing cross border deliveries and a Transport Canada Appointed Tonnage Measurer I get involved with this stuff all the time. You are not required to pay any Canadian taxes on the vessel until/if it moves into Canadian waters.

You are sadly mistaken if you think cruising the US under a cruising license will make life easier. let me quote directly from my cruising license .....

This license is granted subject to the condition that the yacht named herein blah blah blah ...Upon arrival at each port or place in the United States, the master shall report the fact of arrival to the designated Customs and Border Protection Officer at the nearest port of entry. Such report shall be made immediately upon arrival.

This rule has been on the books for decades but was rarely if ever enforced in the 25yrs I've been cross border cruising ... No more. For the last year or so this is being rigidly enforced. What it means is that every time you stop the boat at a "place" you must report in. No big deal you say ? Not so easy, many of the numbers provided by CPB get a "this number is not in service" message. When you get a human on the phone they often don't know why you are calling. I called in this morning and have yet to receive the promised call back. Two Canadians have been fined $5k for not reporting in, one was fined for moving to another slip in the same marina without notifying CPB. I received a written warning of Notice of Violation with threat of vessel seizure or not reporting in when the previous officer told me I didn't have to until I got to the next Sector ... I don't think they want the 25k a year I spend here supporting their marine and tourist businesses. Good luck

Wow!! Guess I won't be visiting Maine next summer. / Len

[Bassman3]

Thank you for the replies.
This just points out the confusion surrounding this issue. For instance, in response to Vasco's "the boat has to leave the US for at least 15 days when the permit expires." , I have the following quote from the CBP agent dealing with me:
"Since your vessel was purchased in the US you would be eligible for successive cruising licenses."
(my question) What does "successive cruising licenses " mean exactly?
Successive means you can get a new Cruising License without having to bring your vessel out of the USA.
Go figure.
He also explained that I just have to check in again if I leave a designated port "area". I cruise mostly on the FL gulf side. The "port region" there extends from Venice to Goodland which is a large area. However, other information I see indicates I need to check in whenever the boat is moved.
This is a mess. I think I will remove the Canadian flags (which is the only reason I was checked in the first place) and pretend I am USA registered.

[boatpoker]

CPB are a little vague on many border issues. I have dual UK/Canadian citizenship (UK passport, Canadian citizenship card). They once held me for a full day, they said I was lying because it was impossible to have dual citizenship !

[mcm]

Had a boat in Fla for 8 yrs US built Cdn documented...no tax unless brought to Canada, I assume you pd Fla. State tax, if not expect trouble.
Cruising license no problem or is the call in number, I did 8 yrs no,issues, moving within the Port jurisdiction where your permit is issued requires no call ins, only if you move jurisdiction.
Taking off the flag and pretending to be US is a jail term guy, do not be stupid, no wonder some Canadians give us a bad name and cause more issues. Follow the law that's what it's for not for you to violate. You were really lucky you were not detained and fined for having no permit.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by mcm

Cruising license no problem or is the call in number, I did 8 yrs no,issues, moving within the Port jurisdiction where your permit is issued requires no call ins, only if you move jurisdiction. .

Have you done this in the last year or so ?
It worked for the previous 25yrs but myself and every other Canadian cruiser I know has not been so lucky in the last 12 months. It's been a regular topic of discussion among a couple of hundred Canadian boats here in Indiantown as we all get ready for the Bahamas.

[mcm]

I used to run into different customs areas with different interpretations of the rules. I personally sat with the guy in Ft Laudedale and he filled me in on the exact regs, I also received written rulings from the Gov't confirming the guys story. part of the problem is that someone falls a foul of a bad agent and spreads the word as the "new law" go to the source and get the written reg. ask any customs agent for that address. I used to have all that stuff on file but dumped it two yrs ago after selling the boat. a g good source to call,is the Miami branch down by the cruise dock, very helpful.
Never hurts to check the cpb.gov website for latest info and also submit questions. It takes work to get the truth.

[mcm]

Good place to start also..

https://www.cbp.gov/document/directi...umented-united

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by mcm

I used to run into different customs areas with different interpretations of the rules. I personally sat with the guy in Ft Laudedale and he filled me in on the exact regs, I also received written rulings from the Gov't confirming the guys story. part of the problem is that someone falls a foul of a bad agent and spreads the word as the "new law" go to the source and get the written reg. ask any customs agent for that address. I used to have all that stuff on file but dumped it two yrs ago after selling the boat. a g good source to call,is the Miami branch down by the cruise dock, very helpful.
Never hurts to check the cpb.gov website for latest info and also submit questions. It takes work to get the truth.

There are no new regs, just a new attitude to enforcement of existing reg's which are all in the Code of Federal Regulations (which I carry onboard) and have been in force since the 1970's. As I said this has only occurred in the last year. Your experience is out of date with the new order and attitude.

[mcm]

There is no ability to renew a cruising license if you are a non resident of the US with a foreign registered boat even though built in the US unless you leave for the 15 days as noted below, note that the successive issue of licenses is reserved for US residents. |The way the reg is written is a bit confusing but clear when studied.

This is a change to the regs in 2013. Some customs agents will read the following favorably to non residents, was my experience for 8 yrs never left for the 15 days.

6.1 In the interest of uniformity, Cruising Licenses for pleasure vessels owned by resident aliens shall be issued to:

6.1.1 Foreigndocumented pleasure vessels which were built in the United States or upon which duty has been paid.

6.1.2 Successive Cruising Licenses may be issued to a foreigndocumented pleasure vessels which were built in the United States or on which United States Customs duty has been paid, provided, that the vessel is documented under the laws of one of the countries listed in 19 CFR 4.94(b).

6.1.3 Other foreigndocumented pleasure vessels. Except in the special circumstances described in the POLICY portion of this Directive, a foreigndocumented pleasure vessel which was not built in the United States and upon which United States Customs duty has not been paid shall not be issued successive Cruising Licenses.

6.2 Upon expiration of one Cruising License, such a pleasure vessel shall not be entitled to another one until it again arrives in the United States from a foreign port or place and more than 15 days have elapsed since the expiration of the vessel's previous Cruising License.

[Bassman3]

I don't know, but section 6.1.2 seems to say that successive cruising licences CAN be issued for a documented (which I intend to do), USA built boat without leaving.
I have asked the agent I've been consulting with to confirm this again.
I did speak with the fellow who will probably do the tonnage measurement for me and he stated it basically all depends on which inspector you get. Maybe at least with the "new vigor" being applied to the old rules there will start to be some standardization.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Bassman3

I don't know, but section 6.1.2 seems to say that successive cruising licences CAN be issued for a documented (which I intend to do), USA built boat without leaving..

Only US citizens or US corporations qualify for USCG Documentation. That rule is written in stone and there is no other interpretation.

[Bassman3]

Boatpoker. Thanks. Yes, I understand that fully but I read the following:

6.1.1 Foreigndocumented pleasure vessels which were built in the United States or upon which duty has been paid.

6.1.2 Successive Cruising Licenses may be issued to a foreigndocumented pleasure vessels which were built in the United States or on which United States Customs duty has been paid, provided, that the vessel is documented under the laws of one of the countries listed in 19 CFR 4.94(b).

Once I am documented in Canada i.e "foreign documented" it sounds like I'd qualify for the successive licences.
I'll provide more info once I have it.