Colreg question

[StuM]

Originally Posted by longjonsilver

And yes, i have a copy of the Colregs, but which of those two rules takes precedence has always been confusing to me.

Despite your ungrateful diatribe, I will attempt to elucidate further.

Which two rules do you think were in effect?
The three sections of Rule 12(a) are mutually exclusive.
There was only one rule covering the situation you described.

Rule 12
(a) When two sailing vessels are approaching one another, so as to involve risk of collision, one of them shall keep out of the way of the other as follows:
(i) when each has the wind on a different side, the vessel which has the wind on the port side shall keep out of the way of the other;

[chrisr]

longjon, i sympathise. when folk ask a question we should not put them down immediately. asking questions is how we learn...NONE of us was born knowing it all (although most of us did know the answer to this one when we were still in single digits...)

anyway, it's really simple ;

between sailing vessels ;

1. if on different tacks, the boat on port keeps clear of the boat on starboard
2. if on same tack, the windward boat keeps clear of the leeward boat
3. if on same tack and neither is to winward of the other, overtaking vessel keeps clear

easy as 1,2,3

never stop asking questions !

cheers,

[StuM]

Originally Posted by longjonsilver

We came within several meters. i was operating the mainsheet and traveler. Ray, as the owner of the C&C was the skipper and helmsman. He adjusted course at the last second. This club is very friendly. There has not been a protest for as long as anyone can remember.

"Protest"? Protests only apply to racing and only when one boat has actually "broken a rule". When racing, the appropriate Rules are the Racing Rues of Sailing, not COLREGS.


If you were racing and he "adjusted course at the last second" and you "came within several meters", that's quite acceptable and in fact common practice in many racing circles. No contact, no foul.


The relevant rule is Rule 10:
When boats are on opposite tacks, a port-tack boat shall keep clear
of a starboard-tack boat.

[hasse_A]

Originally Posted by Skins

If you tack onto starboard then you become the stand on vessel as the other boat is windward but that's not something you would do unless racing.

Once you have entered into the situation you are not allowed to change course to make the other boat the give away boat. There is a decision point coming into the situation and it is then determined who is the stand on vessel and who is the give way vessel.

I see it as the give away vessel is the vessel that's got all the freedom. It is allowed to handle the crossing. The stand on vessel has got no freedom. It is obliged to keep course and speed until a collision is obvious and is then permitted/must take action to prevent the collision in any way possible.

We are talking cruising sailing, not racing which has got other rules like overlap and such.

[longjonsilver]

Originally Posted by Pete7

I appreciate that the regulations can appear complicated at times, hence need studying, but not all in one go.

The forum members have given you the advice you asked for, freely in their own time and some have gone one step further, amplifying the regulation.

So if they just appear complicated (but are really simple), is it my fault for asking? Could it be possible that the writers just obfuscated things?

In another thread, a RYA ex-examiner gets it wrong three times. And yet i am the dummy?

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ng-238087.html

In that same thread there is a video of some J class yachts in a collision. i notice that those put in charge of multi million dollar yachts, either don't know the rules, or make mistakes, or don't understand the rules or don't care, yet i am berated for asking a question about the aforementioned rules on an internet forum? Give me a break.

And i do appreciate those that genuinely answered my question. Perhaps there are others that either don't understand or will have the same question in the future, but i suspect that some just need to demonstrate their superiority all things nautical on an internet forum just to feel better about themselves? Sad really sad.

I notice in my ancient Chapmans (51st edition), that the terms "right-of-way", "burdened" and "privileged" are used. Somehow the authorities are allowed to change their minds but i am not allowed to ask a simple question on an internet forum to prevent a possible future collision. Who is to blame here, me?

N then, there are the "Western Rivers" rules, "Great Lakes" rules, "Inland" rules, and "International" rules, all in that same Chapmans, not to mention different conventions for buoys in regions "A" and "B". Who is obfuscating here, me? Or am i asking for clarification? i can assure you that the court WILL clarify things to the guilty party. i don't want to be at that party, cuz therez no beer.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by longjonsilver

So if they just appear complicated (but are really simple), is it my fault for asking? Could it be possible that the writers just obfuscated things?

Yes, someone could post something that is obfuscated, for example including the word 'protest' in a post.

Or ask a question that implies little knowledge of a subject, only later to state they have a leading hard copy publication which goes into great detail on the subject. Did I quote Rommel?

Have you read your version of Chapmans 51st edition. What does it say about the situation you raised?

Pete

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by longjonsilver

So if they just appear complicated (but are really simple), is it my fault for asking? Could it be possible that the writers just obfuscated things?

Yes, someone could post something that is obfuscated, for example including the word 'protest' in a post.

Or ask a question that implies little knowledge of a subject, only later to state they have a leading hard copy publication which goes into great detail of the subject. Did I quote Rommel?

Have you read your version of Chapmans 51st edition. What does it say in the situation you raised?

Originally Posted by longjonsilver

Somehow the authorities are allowed to change their minds but i am not allowed to ask a simple question on an internet forum to prevent a possible future collision. Who is to blame here, me?

Please show me who said you couldn't post a simple question on an internet forum?
Did you make this up?

A simple question if you have a moment:

Did you, or did you not, know the answer to your opening question before you made the first post?

[StuM]

Originally Posted by longjonsilver

I notice in my ancient Chapmans (51st edition), that the terms "right-of-way", "burdened" and "privileged" are used. Somehow the authorities are allowed to change their minds but i am not allowed to ask a simple question on an internet forum to prevent a possible future collision. Who is to blame here, me?

Chapman's 51st Edition - 1975.
Chapman's is currently on the 68th Edition.

COLREGS 1972 - came into force 1977. Most recently amended in 2016


Maybe it's time to find out what has changed in the last 40 odd years if you are going to be on the water with other vessels.

[Joefiss]

Direct from the Amalgamated book of all things.
Rule 12 - Sailing Vessels Return to the top of the page

(a) When two sailing vessels are approaching one another, so as to involve risk of collision, one of them shall keep out of the way of the other as follows:

(i) when each has the wind on a different side, the vessel which has the wind on the port side shall keep out of the way of the other;
(ii) when both have the wind on the same side, the vessel which is to windward shall keep out of the way of the vessel which is to leeward;
(iii) if a vessel with the wind on the port side sees a vessel to windward and cannot determine with certainty whether the other vessel has the wind on the port or on the starboard side, she shall keep out of the way of the other.

(b) For the purposes of this Rule, the windward side shall be deemed to be the side opposite that on which the mainsail is carried or, in the case of a square-rigged vessel, the side opposite to that on which the largest fore-and-aft sail is carried.

[longjonsilver]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Or ask a question that implies little knowledge of a subject, only later to state they have a leading hard copy publication which goes into great detail of the subject. Did I quote Rommel?

Have you read your version of Chapmans 51st edition. What does it say in the situation you raised?

Yes i have read the relevant section in Chapmans 51st edition - that is why i stated i have had this question in my mind for years, and i have downloaded the current Colregs when i learned that things had changed. So please excuse me for not having the high level of intellectual attainment that you so obviously possess. So that is why i asked here so as to be enlightened by all those who know every jot and tittle of maritime law.

Originally Posted by Pete7

Please show me who said you couldn't post a simple question on an internet forum?
Did you make this up?

i did post a simple question on an internet forum, and look at how i have been belittled for my stupidity. How dare i ask for elucidation! How could anyone have the audacity to register and post on this esteemed forum without having at least the penultimate word on the subject? Shame on me.

Originally Posted by Pete7

Did you, or did you not, know the answer to your opening question before you made the first post?

It was an honest question about something that happened Wednesday nite. i honestly thot that the boat running was give way and that the upwind boat was stand on in this situation. So i was surprised that skipper of the other boat yelled "Starboard", cuz i thot the upwind/downwind rule took precedence. That was why i asked the question. i am not a troll.

i know how hot this forum can get cuz i have been reading it for a while. That was why i asked for gentleness:

Originally Posted by longjonsilver

i've wondered this for years and it happened last nite, i've read this forum looking and have not found the answer, so if it is here, and it probably is, go gently on me. So i am gonna ask it here, and i admit its probably a dumb question, but here goes:

And EXCUSE me if i don't have the voluminous knowledge of the Colregs that you do. i am sure that everybody else on the water everyday everywhere understands them at your infinitely high level, and now i am enlightened. Much grateful.

Originally Posted by StuM

Maybe it's time to find out what has changed in the last 40 odd years if you are going to be on the water with other vessels.

Have you taken a moment of your highly valuable time (for which i am thankful), to consider the possibility that is why i asked the question in the first place? Or would you prefer to meet me on the water with me not having the privilege of your expertise? Kinda like the skipper of the aforementioned J boat.

All over a simple question of clarification. If you want people to leave this forum and never come back, you sure have the right strategy. By the way, have y'all read Sun Tzu?

[StuM]

Originally Posted by longjonsilver

By the way, have y'all read Sun Tzu?

Many times. I was an infantry officer in the NZ Army.

[carstenb]

Longjon - this is really a basic question and one you should know the answer to before setting out on a sailboat.

So perhaps the astonishment of many is predictable.

I'll give you an example that happen to us about a week ago. It shows just how difficult at situation like this can be. We are sailing in and around Puget Sound. One of the idiosyncrasies of Puget Sound is that the wind can apparently come from all directions at the same time.

We are sailing southward with the wind on the beam from port - so we are on the port tack. Approaching us from the south on the same but 180 degree opposite course is a sailboat with the wind on the beam and also on the port tack.

yeah well - both on port tacks, both on the beam - who is give way and who is stand on?

The only rule that applies here is Rule 2. We turned to starboard a bit, thereby avoiding a potential collision and talked about which one of us would get a different wind first - changing the situation

As it turned out - we were abreast of each other when we both caught the new wind and both ended up on starboard tacks.

interesting and certainly worth a good discussion over a beer or something at sundowner time

[dannc]

Originally Posted by longjonsilver

We obviously have some great teachers on this forum. Born knowing it all, belittling anyone who dares ask a question. That is the best way to impart your voluminous knowledge to the rest of the world. i will make a note that we will have to put that technique into our pediological textbooks, here in the university.
...

jon

Jon,

The answers you got from some people were just flat out rude.

It was a fair question and you should have been given a proper response without condescension, ridicule, and rudeness.

A bunch of people who answered should have known better, shown have taken the question as a teaching moment, not a opportunity to belittle.

Later,
Dan

[Singularity]

Originally Posted by Pete7

...
Oh and as a footnote, I have some bad news for you after reading your signature line. It's not looking good for the little green men from outer space. Mind you they must be working with IRPC in Space in 3 dimensions if not 4 https://www.9news.com.au/national/sp...1-9445059a445a

Perhaps such an assessment neglects to consider other possibilities:

News in Brief
Aliens Pointedly Ignoring METI Transmissions Thought Scientists Would’ve Gotten Hint By Now

GLIESE 581 G—Noting that their lack of response to interstellar radio messages seemed pretty obvious, aliens pointedly avoiding METI transmissions confirmed Wednesday that they really thought Earth’s scientists would’ve taken the hint by now. “Sheesh, they’ve been at this for decades and haven’t heard a single thing from us, you’d think they would get the picture that we just aren’t interested,” said cosmologist Korlim Muulthixx, who added that Earth researchers should just move on, noting that numerous extraterrestrial civilizations had deliberately stopped using any broadcasting formats that humans could differentiate from the universe’s background radiation.

“We saw that lame f*cking Voyager out there and clearly nobody wanted anything to do with it. In the past few years, it seems like Earth people have developed new ways to listen for us, as if that’s going to change our minds and send us rushing to contact them. Seriously, at this point, it just comes off as completely desperate.”

https://www.theonion.com/aliens-poin...-sc-1844986858

[GreenWave]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Maybe this is a post to test if we can all agree on at least something.

Sure why not.