COLREGS - vessel under oars

[hellosailor]

A gentlemen always gives way to a racing scull, since that's obviously an athlete and sportsman deserving of some consideration.

But oars...oars are easy and common.

What then of...we've all seen reruns or originals of Flipper, towing a disabled boat. And Brits, the French, and the Italians have tested Newfoundland dogs in water rescue service, one dog can tow a lifeboat with some twenty survivors on it.

If a vessel is under tow by an aquatic mammal, either a dolphin or a Newfoundland dog formally enrolled as a water rescue dog, does it then become the stand-on vessel?

[Robin3]

Originally Posted by foggysail

Hold on to your oars. Here on this side of the pond, the US Coast Guard demands that ALL vessels do whatever is necessary to avoid a collision. If you have the misfortune to be involved in a collision and found that you did nothing to avoid it because of some mistaken belief that you had the "right of way", be ready to be found equally guilty for causing the collision.

Somebody needs to tell the USN too then

BTW nowhere in international COLREGS does it say commit suicide' but applies stand on,'note NOT ''right of way rules until such time as avoidance by all is required. Seems American English is differently understood/interpreted.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by foggysail

The Coast Guard's Navigation Rules (U.S. version of COLREGS) are quite clear. All vessels are required to take actions that avoid collision. Anybody sitting at a helm and resorting to a "who has the right of way" is in essence challenging when he should be thinking of collision avoidance.

And GET OUT OF THE WAY or better, keep out of the way should be first and foremost thoughts rather than consorting to Rule #xyz.

Sure, but "Rule #xyz" is not there for window dressing. The Rules specifically forbid maneuvering in a random and uncoordinated way, and they command you to hold your course and speed under certain circumstances. You are not exempt from this obligation just because your boat is small.

In another thread, someone doubted that any single sailor was confused by the words "right of way" used instead of "standing on", but here we have it -- there is no "right of way" under the Rules (except on rivers), in the sense you are using it here -- thinking that standing on is a "right" which someone can "assert" in some kind of "confrontation." It doesn't work like that -- at all!

Sometimes you have to stand on so that you don't maneuver simultaneously with the other vessel and get run down, because the two maneuvers conflict with each other. Standing on is not a right at all -- it's an obligation which exists exactly to prevent this kind of thing.

[foggysail]

Originally Posted by Robin3

Somebody needs to tell the USN too then

BTW nowhere in international COLREGS does it say commit suicide' but applies stand on,'note NOT ''right of way rules until such time as avoidance by all is required. Seems American English is differently understood/interpreted.

The commanders of those recent collisions along with staff and enlisted personnel were told. Not only told, but fired.

Our navy is under enormous strain. I just read where the average work week used to be 80 hours now it is over 100 hours. Our military has taken on too many responsibilities while at the same time undergone staff and equipment cuts. I do not want to delve into politics other than to mention we have a new president....for good or for bad.

As to "COLREGS does it say commit suicide' but applies stand on,'note NOT ''right of way rules until such time as avoidance by all is required."

Is that not consistent with our Navigation Rules that clearly states each vessel is responsible to do what is needed to avoid a collision? Too many times have I been told by sailboat people that they have the right of way.

Before I transitioned to power, I owned a sailboat. One time when we were preparing to enter Cuttyhunk Harbor under engine and had just dropped our sails, another sailboat was in the process of ramming us broadside. I quickly got out of their way and screamed at them. In a quite voice, the other boat told me that they were under sail, privileged and had the right of way.

Enough!

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by foggysail

Hold on to your oars. Here on this side of the pond, the US Coast Guard demands that ALL vessels do whatever is necessary to avoid a collision. If you have the misfortune to be involved in a collision and found that you did nothing to avoid it because of some mistaken belief that you had the "right of way", be ready to be found equally guilty for causing the collision.

You are exactly right on this point -- everyone is at all times responsible for preventing a collision, and that is true on both sides of the pond.

But standing-on IS doing something! You are staying on the same course and speed to give the other vessel a chance to make its own maneuver. And you are obligated to do this under certain circumstances and for a certain time.

While doing so, you are also obligated to be watching intensely and evaluating what the other vessel has done. If you have a reasonable doubt that the other vessel has solved the crossing, then you are free to maneuver yourself. But first you have to give the other vessel a chance, if you are the stand-on vessel.

This is not optional -- it is a legal obligation.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by foggysail

. .. Too many times have I been told by sailboat people that they have the right of way. . .

Rod, are you reading this thread? Rolling on the floor here.

Foggy: I hear you loud and clear! This is the same good fight many of us are fighting. I think you misunderstand what standing-on means, but you sure understand that no one ever has the "right of way". You are absolutely right about those sailboaters, and haven't we all known legions of them.

[foggysail]

No Dockhead, I understand "standing on." I also understand that it does not absolve one from fault in a collision where the Navigation rules leave nothing misconstrued. I think we are discussing trivia because I believe we both understand the rules and consequences of a collision.

OH and that sailboat I described...... Wifey had to stop me from going after that a-hole. Yeah, don't know how that opinion started. I know I never presumed having that right when we sailed. I believe it results from too many people getting boat without taking any basic safety and navigation courses.

[Snore]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

If a vessel is under tow by an aquatic mammal, either a dolphin or a Newfoundland dog formally enrolled as a water rescue dog, does it then become the stand-on vessel?

Are they showing the appropriate day shapes for a vessel under tow? If at night are there appropriate lights? Is this a hip or stern tow?

As a former WaterTriber, I always give way and pass astern of long distance kayakers.

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by weavis

... irritated boat owner here swamped by a ruddy great selfish arab floating luxury residence......

First thanks everyone for keeping this light (even though it was a serious question that ran thru my head each morning as we dodged/they dodged, usually with a friendly wave). I'm normally a sensitive little Arab, but since my superyacht is handled by a Westerrn (infidel), that slight can be ignored.

The other problem I have is distinguishing which of the luxury sport-fishers we pass are carrying charter parties of fishermen (and therefore commercial) and which are simply owned by rich Arabs like myself, with all the time in the world to dodge around the paying groups. Also, when I occasionally charter my superyacht, does it then become a commercial vessel with full 'right-of-way' over all the other superyachts. All too confusing - if only I were Greek!

(Oops! I didn't see two more intervening pages, may have been a bit premature about 'keeping it light')

[NevisDog]

Thanks Dockhead and Exile for your patient (though fruitless) attempts at educating. This thread provided all necessary information in the first three posts - after that it was all downhill as usual. (First time I've heard of real road-rage on boats though!)

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

... This thread provided all necessary information in the first three posts ...

Correction, above should read "first three replies" - (#4 was very helpful)

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Rod, are you reading this thread? Rolling on the floor here.

Foggy: I hear you loud and clear! This is the same good fight many of us are fighting. I think you misunderstand what standing-on means, but you sure understand that no one ever has the "right of way". You are absolutely right about those sailboaters, and haven't we all known legions of them.

Seems like I've encountered one or two of them recently here on CF

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by foggysail

The Coast Guard's Navigation Rules (U.S. version of COLREGS) are quite clear. All vessels are required to take actions that avoid collision. Anybody sitting at a helm and resorting to a "who has the right of way" is in essence challenging when he should be thinking of collision avoidance.

And GET OUT OF THE WAY or better, keep out of the way should be first and foremost thoughts rather than consorting to Rule #xyz.

You apparently are aware of the rules, yet seem to think there's no reason to actually know or utilize them. If everyone out there used your "don't worry about rule #xyz, just stay out of the way", how do you think that would work?

Before you go out in you boat again, I suggest you have a read: https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageNam...lesWithAnnexes

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

... If everyone out there used your "don't worry about rule #xyz, just stay out of the way", how do you think that would work?

Wouldn't it work brilliantly on our roads? Truck heading towards you in middle of road - just dodge left or right as you see fit - no worries, until he decides to do likewise!!!

[StuM]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

Wouldn't it work brilliantly on our roads? Truck heading towards you in middle of road - just dodge left or right as you see fit - no worries, until he decides to do likewise!!!

Never seems to be a problem in the movies. The hero does that all the time.
(Maybe that's where the misconceptions arise).